## Avodah Zarah Daf 44b

###### Avodah Zarah 44b:1
[Avodah Zarah 44b:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:1)

**מַתְנִי׳** שָׁאַל פְּרוֹקְלוּס בֶּן פְּלוֹסְפוּס אֶת רַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל בְּעַכּוֹ, שֶׁהָיָה רוֹחֵץ בַּמֶּרְחָץ שֶׁל אַפְרוֹדִיטֵי. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: כָּתוּב בְּתוֹרַתְכֶם ״לָא יִדְבַּק בְּיָדְךָ מְאוּמָה מִן הַחֵרֶם״, מִפְּנֵי מָה אַתָּה רוֹחֵץ בְּמֶרְחָץ שֶׁל אַפְרוֹדִיטֵי?

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**MISHNA:** A wise gentile, **Proclus ben Plospus,** once **asked** a question **of Rabban Gamliel in** the city of **Akko when he was bathing in the bathhouse of** the Greek god **Aphrodite.** Proclus **said to him: It is written in your Torah:** “And **nothing of the proscribed items shall cleave to your hand”** (Deuteronomy 13:18). **For what reason do you bathe** before an idol **in the bathhouse of Aphrodite?**


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:2
[Avodah Zarah 44b:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:2)

אָמַר לוֹ: אֵין מְשִׁיבִין בַּמֶּרְחָץ. וּכְשֶׁיָּצָא אָמַר לוֹ: אֲנִי לֹא בָּאתִי בִּגְבוּלָהּ, הִיא בָּאָה בִּגְבוּלִי. אֵין אוֹמְרִים: נַעֲשָׂה מֶרְחָץ נוֹי לְאַפְרוֹדִיטֵי, אֶלָּא אוֹמֵר: נַעֲשָׂה אַפְרוֹדִיטֵי נוֹי לַמֶּרְחָץ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rabban Gamliel **said to him: One may not answer** questions related to Torah **in the bathhouse. And when he left** the bathhouse, Rabban Gamliel gave him several answers. **He said to him: I did not come into its domain; it came into my domain.** The bathhouse existed before the statue dedicated to Aphrodite was erected. Furthermore, people **do not say: Let us make a bathhouse** as **an adornment for Aphrodite; rather,** they **say: Let us make** a statue of **Aphrodite** as **an adornment for the bathhouse.** Therefore, the main structure is not the Aphrodite statue, but the bathhouse.


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:3
[Avodah Zarah 44b:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:3)

דָּבָר אַחֵר: אִם נוֹתְנִים לְךָ מָמוֹן הַרְבֵּה, אִי אַתָּה נִכְנָס לַעֲבוֹדָה זָרָה שֶׁלְּךָ עָרוֹם וּבַעַל קֶרִי וּמַשְׁתִּין בְּפָנֶיהָ, זוֹ עוֹמֶדֶת עַל פִּי הַבִּיב וְכׇל הָעָם מַשְׁתִּינִין לְפָנֶיהָ, לֹא נֶאֱמַר אֶלָּא ״אֱלֹהֵיהֶם״ — אֶת שֶׁנּוֹהֵג בּוֹ מִשּׁוּם אֱלוֹהַּ — אָסוּר, אֶת שֶׁאֵינוֹ נוֹהֵג בּוֹ מִשּׁוּם אֱלוֹהַּ — מוּתָּר.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rabban Gamliel continued: **Alternatively,** there is another answer: Even **if** people would **give you a lot of money, you would not enter** before **your** object of **idol worship naked, or** as **one who experienced a seminal emission** who comes to the bathhouse to purify himself, **nor** would you **urinate before it. This** statue **stands upon the sewage pipe and all the people urinate before it.** There is no prohibition in this case, as **it is stated** in the verse **only: “Their gods”** (see Deuteronomy 12:2), which indicates that a statue **that** people **treat as a deity** is **forbidden,** but one **that** people **do not treat** with the respect that is **due to a deity** is **permitted.**


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:4
[Avodah Zarah 44b:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:4)

**גְּמָ׳** וְהֵיכִי עָבֵיד הָכִי? וְהָאָמַר רַבָּה בַּר בַּר חָנָה אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: בְּכׇל מָקוֹם מוּתָּר לְהַרְהֵר, חוּץ מִבֵּית הַמֶּרְחָץ וּמִבֵּית הַכִּסֵּא!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**GEMARA:** The mishna relates that Rabban Gamliel first told Proclus that he cannot answer a question related to Torah in a bathhouse. The Gemara asks: **And how could he have acted** in **this** manner? How could Rabban Gamliel have stated even this *halakha* in the bathhouse? **But doesn’t Rabba bar bar Ḥana say** that **Rabbi Yoḥanan says: It is permitted to contemplate** matters of Torah **everywhere except for the bathhouse and the bathroom?**


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:5
[Avodah Zarah 44b:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:5)

וְכִי תֵּימָא: בִּלְשׁוֹן חוֹל אֲמַר לֵיהּ, וְהָאָמַר אַבָּיֵי: דְּבָרִים שֶׁל חוֹל מוּתָּר לְאוֹמְרָן בִּלְשׁוֹן קֹדֶשׁ, דְּבָרִים שֶׁל קֹדֶשׁ אָסוּר לְאוֹמְרָן בִּלְשׁוֹן חוֹל!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And if you would say** that Rabban Gamliel **stated** this ruling **to him in a secular language,** and therefore it was permitted for him to do so, this would not be a satisfactory answer; **but doesn’t Abaye say** that it is **permitted to say secular statements** in a bathhouse or bathroom **in the sacred tongue,** Hebrew, but it is **prohibited to say sacred,** Torah-related, **statements** even **in a secular language** in a bathhouse or bathroom?


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:6
[Avodah Zarah 44b:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:6)

תָּנָא: כְּשֶׁיָּצָא, אָמַר לוֹ: אֵין מְשִׁיבִין בַּמֶּרְחָץ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara answers that the mishna actually **taught** as follows: **When he left** the bathhouse, Rabban Gamliel **said to him: One may not answer** questions related to Torah **in the bathhouse.**


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:7
[Avodah Zarah 44b:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:7)

אָמַר רַב חָמָא בַּר יוֹסֵף בְּרַבִּי, אָמַר רַבִּי אוֹשַׁעְיָא: תְּשׁוּבָה גְּנוּבָה הֱשִׁיבוֹ רַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל לְאוֹתוֹ הֶגְמוֹן, וַאֲנִי אוֹמֵר: אֵינָהּ גְּנוּבָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ **Rav Ḥama bar Yosef the Distinguished says** that **Rabbi Oshaya says: Rabban Gamliel gave a deceptive response to that officer,** Proclus. **And I,** Rav Ḥama, **say that** the response **was not deceptive** but truthful.


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:8
[Avodah Zarah 44b:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:8)

מָה גְּנוּבְתַּיהּ? דְּקָאָמַר לוֹ: זוֹ עוֹמֶדֶת עַל פִּי הַבִּיב וְכׇל אָדָם מַשְׁתִּין בְּפָנֶיהָ. וְכִי מַשְׁתִּין בְּפָנֶיהָ מַאי הָוֵי? וְהָאָמַר רָבָא: פְּעוֹר יוֹכִיחַ, שֶׁמְּפַעֲרִין לְפָנָיו בְּכׇל יוֹם וְאֵינוֹ בָּטֵל.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara explains: **What was its deception,** according to Rabbi Oshaya? It was **that** Rabban Gamliel **said to him: This** statue **stands upon the sewage pipe and all people urinate before it.** In saying this, Rabban Gamliel meant that the statue has no idolatrous status as is evident from the demeaning conduct performed before it. **And** this claim is deceptive, as even **if one urinates before it, what of it?** Does that really negate its idolatrous status? **But doesn’t Rava say** that the idol of **Peor proves** the contrary, **as** its worshippers **defecate before it daily, and** its idolatrous status still **is not revoked?**


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:9
[Avodah Zarah 44b:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:9)

וַאֲנִי אוֹמֵר: אֵינָהּ גְּנוּבָה, זוֹ עֲבוֹדָתָהּ בְּכָךְ, וְזוֹ אֵין עֲבוֹדָתָהּ בְּכָךְ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥama bar Yosef himself disagrees: **And I say** that **it is not a deceptive** answer. With regard to **that** idol, Peor, **its** standard manner of **worship is in that** manner; therefore, its status is certainly not revoked by that behavior. **But** with regard to **this** statue, Aphrodite, **its** standard manner of **worship is not in that** manner. Therefore, the display of demeaning conduct in its presence is indicative of a lack of reverence for it and of its lack of idolatrous status.


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:10
[Avodah Zarah 44b:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:10)

אָמַר אַבָּיֵי: גְּנוּבְתַּהּ מֵהָכָא, דְּקָאָמַר לֵיהּ: אֲנִי לֹא בָּאתִי בִּגְבוּלָהּ וְהִיא בָּאָה בִּגְבוּלִי. וְכִי בָּא בִּגְבוּלָהּ מַאי הָוֵי? וְהָתְנַן: עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה שֶׁיֵּשׁ לָהּ מֶרְחָץ אוֹ גִינָּה — נֶהֱנִין מֵהֶן שֶׁלֹּא בְּטוֹבָה, וְאֵין נֶהֱנִין מֵהֶן בְּטוֹבָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Abaye said: The deception in** Rabban Gamliel’s response was **from here, when he said to him: I did not come into its domain, but** rather **it came into my domain.** He explains: **And** even **if it,** the bathhouse, **had come into its domain, what of it?** Even if the idol had preceded the bathhouse, it would still not render use of the bathhouse prohibited; **but didn’t we learn** in a mishna (51b): With regard to an object of **idol worship that has a bathhouse or a garden** in front of it, **one may** derive **benefit from** the bathhouse or garden **without** showing **favor** by giving thanks or payment to its priests, **but one may not** derive **benefit from it while** showing it **favor?** Rabban Gamliel’s answer was therefore deceptive because the permissibility of using the bathhouse had nothing to do with its antecedence to the statue.


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:11
[Avodah Zarah 44b:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:11)

וַאֲנִי אוֹמֵר: אֵינָהּ גְּנוּבָה, שֶׁלֹּא בְּטוֹבַת רַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל כִּבְטוֹבַת אֲחֵרִים דָּמֵי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥama bar Yosef himself disagrees: **And I say** that **it is not a deceptive** answer, **as** even though **Rabban Gamliel** visited the bathhouse **without** showing **favor** by expressing thanks or giving payment, the very fact that such an esteemed visitor paid it a visit **is the equivalent of others** actively showing **favor.**


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:12
[Avodah Zarah 44b:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:12)

רַב שִׁימִי בַּר חִיָּיא אָמַר: גְּנוּבְתַּהּ מֵהָכָא, דְּקָאָמַר לוֹ: זוֹ עוֹמֶדֶת עַל הַבִּיב וְכׇל אָדָם מַשְׁתִּינִין בְּפָנֶיהָ. וְכִי מַשְׁתִּינִין בְּפָנֶיהָ מַאי הָוֵי? וְהָתְנַן: רָק בְּפָנֶיהָ, הִשְׁתִּין בְּפָנֶיהָ, גֵּירְרָה, וְזָרַק בָּהּ אֶת הַצּוֹאָה — הֲרֵי זוֹ אֵינָהּ בְּטֵילָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rav Shimi bar Ḥiyya says: The deception in** Rabban Gamliel’s response was **from here, when he said to him: This** statue **stands upon the sewage pipe and all people urinate before it.** He explains: **And if people urinate before it, what of it?** That does not indicate a lack of idolatrous status; **but didn’t we learn** in a mishna (53a): If one **spit in front of it, urinated in front of it, dragged it, or threw feces at it,** its status as an object of idol worship **is not revoked?**


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:13
[Avodah Zarah 44b:13](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:13)

וַאֲנִי אוֹמֵר: אֵינָהּ גְּנוּבָה, הָתָם — לְפִי שַׁעְתָּא הוּא רָתַח עֲלַהּ, וַהֲדַר מְפַיֵּיס לַהּ, הָכָא — כֹּל שַׁעְתָּא וְשַׁעְתָּא בְּזִלְזוּלַהּ קָיְימָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥama bar Yosef himself disagrees: **And I say** that **it is not a deceptive** answer. **There,** the case of that mishna is of one who **temporarily rages against** the idol, **and afterward he appeases it. Here,** in the case of the Aphrodite statue erected on the sewage pipe, **each and every hour** the statue **remains in** a constant state of **disparagement.** This setup indicates a permanent lack of reverence and an absence of true idolatrous status.


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:14
[Avodah Zarah 44b:14](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:14)

רַבָּה בַּר עוּלָּא אָמַר: גְּנוּבְתַּהּ מֵהָכָא, דְּקָאָמַר לֵיהּ, אֵין אוֹמְרִין: נַעֲשָׂה מֶרְחָץ נוֹי לְאַפְרוֹדִיטֵי, אֶלָּא: נַעֲשָׂה אַפְרוֹדִיטֵי נוֹי לַמֶּרְחָץ; וְכִי אָמַר ״נַעֲשָׂה מֶרְחָץ לְאַפְרוֹדִיטֵי נוֹי״ מַאי הָוֵי? וְהָתַנְיָא: הָאוֹמֵר ״בַּיִת זֶה לַעֲבוֹדָה זָרָה״, ״כּוֹס זֶה לַעֲבוֹדָה זָרָה״ — לֹא אָמַר כְּלוּם, שֶׁאֵין הֶקְדֵּשׁ לַעֲבוֹדָה זָרָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rabba bar Ulla said: The deception in** Rabban Gamliel’s response was **from here, when he said to him** that people **do not say: Let us make a bathhouse** as **an adornment for Aphrodite; rather,** they say: **Let us make** a statue of **Aphrodite** as **an adornment for the bathhouse.** He explains: **And** even **if** people **say: Let us make a bathhouse** as **an adornment for Aphrodite, what of it? But isn’t it taught** in a *baraita*: In the case of **one who says: This house is** hereby dedicated **to idol worship,** or: **This cup is** hereby dedicated **to idol worship, he has said nothing,** i.e., his words take no effect, **as there is no** *halakha* of **consecration with regard to** objects of **idol worship.** While one can consecrate an item to the Temple through verbal designation, there is no such method for according idolatrous status to an object. Therefore, Rabban Gamliel’s deception lies in his indication that such a formulation would render the bathhouse forbidden as an object of idol worship.


###### Avodah Zarah 44b:15
[Avodah Zarah 44b:15](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Avodah%20Zarah/r/44b:15)

וַאֲנִי אוֹמֵר: אֵינָהּ גְּנוּבָה, נְהִי דְּאִיתְּסוֹרֵי לָא מִיתַּסְרָא, נוֹי מִיהָא אִיכָּא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥama bar Yosef himself disagrees: **And I say** that **it is not a deceptive** answer. **Although** the bathhouse would **not be rendered forbidden** as an object of idol worship due to a verbal designation, **it would at least have** the status of **an adornment** of an object of idol worship, which is also forbidden.