## Chullin Daf 17b

###### Chullin 17b:1
[Chullin 17b:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:1)

סַכִּין שֶׁיֵּשׁ בָּהּ פְּגִימוֹת הַרְבֵּה – תִּידּוֹן כִּמְגֵירָה, וְשֶׁאֵין בָּהּ אֶלָּא פְּגִימָה אַחַת: אוֹגֶרֶת – פְּסוּלָה, מְסוּכְסֶכֶת – כְּשֵׁרָה. הֵיכִי דָּמְיָא אוֹגֶרֶת? הֵיכִי דָּמְיָא מְסוּכְסֶכֶת? אָמַר רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר: אוֹגֶרֶת – מִשְׁתֵּי רוּחוֹת, מְסוּכְסֶכֶת – מֵרוּחַ אַחַת.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The status of **a knife in which there are several notches is considered like** that of **a saw; and** with regard to a knife **in which there is only one notch,** if it **catches,** the slaughter is **unfit,** but if it **entangles [*mesukhsekhet*],** the slaughter is **fit. What are the circumstances** of a notch that **catches,** and **what are the circumstances** of a notch that **entangles? Rabbi Eliezer said:** A notch that **catches** is one that has a sharp edge **on two sides,** while a notch that **entangles** is one that has a sharp edge **on one side.**


###### Chullin 17b:2
[Chullin 17b:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:2)

מַאי שְׁנָא מִשְׁתֵּי רוּחוֹת, דְּמוּרְשָׁא קַמָּא מַחְלֵישׁ וּמוּרְשָׁא בָּתְרָא בָּזַע? מֵרוּחַ אַחַת נָמֵי, חוּרְפָּא דְּסַכִּינָא מַחְלֵישׁ, מוּרְשָׁא בָּזַע! דְּקָאֵים אַרֵישָׁא דְּסַכִּינָא. סוֹף סוֹף, כִּי אָזְלָא מַחְלְשָׁא, כִּי (אתא בזע) [אָתְיָא בָּזְעָה]! כְּגוֹן שֶׁהוֹלִיךְ וְלֹא הֵבִיא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara challenges this explanation: **What is different** about a notch with a sharp edge **on two sides, where the first edge [*moresha*] compromises** the neck by removing the hide and the flesh, **and the latter edge rips** the *simanim*; in the case of a notch with a sharp edge **on one side too, the sharp** tip **of the knife compromises** the neck and **the edge** of the notch **rips** the *simanim*. The Gemara explains: The reference is to a notch **that stands at the top of the knife,** which begins the slaughter. The Gemara objects: **Ultimately, when** the knife **goes** in one direction **it compromises** the neck and **when it comes** back in the other direction **it rips** the *simanim*. The Gemara explains: The reference is to a case **where he drew the knife backward and did not draw it forward.**


###### Chullin 17b:3
[Chullin 17b:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:3)

אָמַר רָבָא: שָׁלֹשׁ מִדּוֹת בְּסַכִּין – אוֹגֶרֶת – לֹא יִשְׁחוֹט, וְאִם שָׁחַט – שְׁחִיטָתוֹ פְּסוּלָה. מְסוּכְסֶכֶת – לֹא יִשְׁחוֹט בָּהּ לְכִתְחִלָּה, וְאִם שָׁחַט – שְׁחִיטָתוֹ כְּשֵׁרָה. עוֹלֶה וְיוֹרֵד בְּסַכִּין – שׁוֹחֵט בָּהּ לְכַתְּחִלָּה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rava says:** There are **three types** of notches **in a knife.** If the notch **catches, one may not slaughter** with it, **and if he slaughtered, his slaughter is not valid.** If the notch **entangles, one may not slaughter with it *ab initio*; and if he slaughtered** with it, **his slaughter is valid** after the fact. If the notch **rises and falls in** the **knife** and has no sharp edges, **one may slaughter with it *ab initio*.**


###### Chullin 17b:4
[Chullin 17b:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:4)

אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב הוּנָא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב נְחֶמְיָה לְרַב אָשֵׁי: אֲמַרְתְּ לַן מִשְּׁמֵיהּ דְּרָבָא: מְסוּכְסֶכֶת פְּסוּלָה, וְהָא אָמַר רָבָא: מְסוּכְסֶכֶת כְּשֵׁרָה! לָא קַשְׁיָא: כָּאן שֶׁהוֹלִיךְ וְהֵבִיא, כָּאן שֶׁהוֹלִיךְ וְלֹא הֵבִיא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rav Huna, son of Rav Neḥemya, said to Rav Ashi: You said to us in the name of Rava** that if the notch **entangles,** the slaughter is **not valid. But doesn’t Rava say:** If the notch **entangles,** the slaughter is **valid?** Rav Ashi answers: This is **not difficult. Here,** where Rava says that the slaughter is not valid, is in a case **where he drew the knife back and forth. There,** where Rava says that the slaughter is valid, is in a case **where he drew the knife backward and did not draw it forward.**


###### Chullin 17b:5
[Chullin 17b:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:5)

אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב אַחָא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב אַוְיָא לְרַב אָשֵׁי: דָּמְיָא לְסָאסָא, מַאי? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: מַאן יָהֵיב לַן מִבִּשְׂרֵיהּ וְאָכְלִינַן.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rav Aḥa, son of Rav Avya, said to Rav Ashi:** If the knife was **similar to an awn** of grain **[*sasa*],** which is not perfectly smooth but does not have actual notches, **what** is the *halakha*? Rav Ashi **said to him: Who will give us from the meat of** an animal slaughtered with that knife, **and we will eat** it.


###### Chullin 17b:6
[Chullin 17b:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:6)

אָמַר רַב חִסְדָּא: מִנַּיִן לִבְדִיקַת סַכִּין מִן הַתּוֹרָה? שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״וּשְׁחַטְתֶּם בָּזֶה וַאֲכַלְתֶּם״.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ **Rav Ḥisda says: From where** is it derived **that examination of a knife** is an obligation **by Torah law?** It is derived from a verse, **as it is stated** with regard to Saul’s instructions to the people: **“And slaughter with this and eat”** (I Samuel 14:34), indicating that Saul gave them the knife only after ensuring that it was fit to slaughter their animals.


###### Chullin 17b:7
[Chullin 17b:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:7)

פְּשִׁיטָא, כֵּיוָן דְּכִי נְקַב טְרֵיפָה, בָּעֲיָא בְּדִיקָה לְחָכָם קָאָמְרִינַן! וְהָאָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: לֹא אָמְרוּ לְהַרְאוֹת סַכִּין לְחָכָם אֶלָּא מִפְּנֵי כְּבוֹדוֹ שֶׁל חָכָם! מִדְּרַבָּנַן, וּקְרָא אַסְמַכְתָּא בְּעָלְמָא הוּא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: Isn’t it **obvious** that a knife must be examined before slaughter? **Since were one to create a perforation** in the gullet, the animal would be a ***tereifa*,** therefore the knife **requires examination** to prevent that situation. The Gemara answers: **We are saying** that a source for the *halakha* that one must show the knife **to** a Torah **scholar** for examination is needed. The Gemara asks: Is that an obligation by Torah law? **But doesn’t Rabbi Yoḥanan say** that the Sages **said to show** the **knife to** a Torah **scholar only due to** the requirement to show **deference to** the Torah **scholar?** The Gemara answers: Indeed, it is a requirement **by rabbinic law, and the verse is** cited as **a mere support** for that practice, not as a source.


###### Chullin 17b:8
[Chullin 17b:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:8)

בְּמַעְרְבָא בָּדְקִי לַהּ בְּשִׁימְשָׁא, בִּנְהַרְדְּעָא בָּדְקוּ לַהּ בְּמַיָּא, רַב שֵׁשֶׁת בָּדֵק לַהּ בְּרֵישׁ לִישָּׁנֵיהּ, רַב אַחָא בַּר יַעֲקֹב בָּדֵק לַהּ בְּחוּט הַשַּׂעֲרָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara notes: **In the West,** Eretz Yisrael, **they examine** the knife **in the sun** to determine whether there is a notch. **In Neharde’a they examine** the knife **with water.** They would place the blade on the surface of the water, and if there was a notch, it would noticeably alter the surface of the water. **Rav Sheshet would examine it with the tip of his tongue. Rav Aḥa bar Ya’akov would examine it with a strand of hair.** He would pass the strand over the blade of the knife and if there was a notch, it would be caught in that notch.


###### Chullin 17b:9
[Chullin 17b:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:9)

בְּסוּרָא אָמְרִי: בִּישְׂרָא אָכְלָה, בִּישְׂרָא לִבְדְּקַהּ. אָמַר רַב פָּפָּא: צְרִיכָא בְּדִיקָה אַבִּישְׂרָא, וְאַטּוּפְרָא, וְאַתְּלָתָא רוּחָתָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**In Sura they say:** The knife **consumes the flesh; let the flesh examine** the knife. Since the concern is that the knife will rip the flesh during the slaughter, it should be examined by passing it on the tongue or the fingertip. **Rav Pappa said:** The knife **requires examination on the flesh, and on the fingernail, and on the three sides** of the knife, i.e., the blade and the two sides of the knife.


###### Chullin 17b:10
[Chullin 17b:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:10)

אֲמַר לֵיהּ רָבִינָא לְרַב אָשֵׁי: אָמַר לַן רַב סַמָּא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב מְשַׁרְשְׁיָא מִשְּׁמָךְ, דַּאֲמַרְתְּ לֵיהּ מִשְּׁמֵיהּ דְּרָבָא: צְרִיכָא בְּדִיקָה אַבִּישְׂרָא וְאַטּוּפְרָא וְאַתְּלָתָא רוּחָתָא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: אַבִּישְׂרָא וְאַטּוּפְרָא אֲמַרִי, וְאַתְּלָתָא רוּחָתָא לָא אֲמַרִי. אִיכָּא דְּאָמְרִי: אַבִּישְׂרָא וְאַטּוּפְרָא וְאַתְּלָתָא רוּחָתָא אֲמַרִי, מִשְּׁמֵיהּ דְּרָבָא לָא אֲמַרִי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Ravina said to Rav Ashi: Rav Sama, son of Rav Mesharshiyya, said to us in your name that** which **you said to him in the name of Rava:** The knife **requires examination on the flesh, and on the fingernail, and on the three sides.** Rav Ashi **said to** Ravina: **On the flesh and on the fingernail I said, and on the three sides I did not say. There are** those **who say** that Rav Ashi said to him: **On the flesh and on the fingernail and on the three sides I said,** and **in the name of Rava I did not say.**


###### Chullin 17b:11
[Chullin 17b:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:11)

רָבִינָא וְרַב אַחָא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרָבָא הֲווֹ יָתְבִי קַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב אָשֵׁי, אַיְיתוֹ סַכִּין לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב אָשֵׁי לִבְדְּקַהּ. אֲמַר לֵיהּ לְרַב אַחָא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרָבָא: בִּידְקַהּ. בַּדְקַהּ אַטּוּפְרָא וְאַבִּישְׂרָא וְאַתְּלָתָא רוּחָתָא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: יִישַׁר, וְכֵן אָמַר רַב כָּהֲנָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Ravina and Rav Aḥa, son of Rava, were sitting before Rav Ashi.** People **brought a knife before Rav Ashi to examine it.** Rav Ashi **said to Rav Aḥa, son of Rava: Examine it. He examined it on the fingernail, and on the flesh, and on the three sides.** Rav Ashi **said to him: Well done, and Rav Kahana likewise said** that this is the way to examine a knife.


###### Chullin 17b:12
[Chullin 17b:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:12)

רַב יֵימַר אֲמַר: אַטֻּופְרָא וְאַבִּישְׂרָא צְרִיכָא, אַתְּלָתָא רוּחָתָא לָא צְרִיכָא. מִי לָא אָמַר רַבִּי זֵירָא אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: לִיבֵּן סַכִּין וְשָׁחַט בָּהּ – שְׁחִיטָתוֹ כְּשֵׁרָה, שֶׁחִידּוּדָהּ קוֹדֶם לְלִיבּוּנָהּ; וְקַשְׁיָא לַן: הָאִיכָּא צְדָדִין! וְאָמְרִינַן: בֵּית הַשְּׁחִיטָה מִרְוָוח רָוַוח. הָכָא נָמֵי, בֵּית הַשְּׁחִיטָה מִרְוָוח רָוַוח.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rav Yeimar said:** Examination **on the fingernail and on the flesh is necessary,** and examination **on the three sides is not necessary. Doesn’t Rabbi Zeira say** that **Shmuel says:** If **one heated a knife until** it became **white hot and slaughtered** an animal **with it, his slaughter is valid, as its sharp** blade **preceded** the effect of **its white heat; and** it is **difficult for us: But aren’t there** the **sides** of the knife, which burn the throat and render the animal a *tereifa*? **And we say: The area of the slaughter** in the throat **separates** quickly after the incision, and the tissue on either side of the incision is not seared by the white hot blade. **Here too, the area of slaughter separates** quickly, and notches on the side of the knife do not come in contact with the *simanim*.


###### Chullin 17b:13
[Chullin 17b:13](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:13)

אָמַר רַב הוּנָא בַּר רַב קַטִּינָא אָמַר רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן לָקִישׁ, שָׁלֹשׁ פְּגִימוֹת הֵן: פְּגִימַת עֶצֶם בַּפֶּסַח, פְּגִימַת אוֹזֶן בִּבְכוֹר, פְּגִימַת מוּם בְּקָדָשִׁים.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ **Rav Huna bar Rav Ketina says** that **Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish says** that **there are three deficiencies** with the same measure, as follows: **The deficiency of a bone in the Paschal offering,** with regard to which it is written: “Neither shall you break a bone therein” (Exodus 12:46); **the deficiency of an ear in a firstborn** animal that renders it blemished and unfit for sacrifice, in which case a priest may slaughter it anywhere and eat it; and **the deficiency** that constitutes **a blemish in** other forms of **sacrificial** animals.


###### Chullin 17b:14
[Chullin 17b:14](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:14)

וְרַב חִסְדָּא אָמַר: אַף פְּגִימַת סַכִּין. וְאִידַּךְ בְּחוּלִּין לָא קָא מַיְירֵי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And Rav Ḥisda says:** There is **the deficiency of a knife as well.** The Gemara asks: **And the other** *amora*, Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish, why does he not include the knife? The Gemara answers: He does not include it because **he is not speaking with regard to non-sacred** animals.


###### Chullin 17b:15
[Chullin 17b:15](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Chullin/r/17b:15)

וְכוּלָּן, פְּגִימָתָן כְּדֵי פְּגִימַת הַמִּזְבֵּחַ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥisda continues: **And** with regard to **all of** these deficiencies, **the measure of their deficiency** is **equivalent to** the measure of **deficiency** that renders **the altar** unfit.