## Ketubot Daf 13b

###### Ketubot 13b:1
[Ketubot 13b:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:1)

אוֹ לְחוּרְבָּה — וְאָמְרוּ לָהּ: מָה טִיבוֹ שֶׁל אִישׁ זֶה? כֹּהֵן הוּא, וּבֶן אֲחִי אַבָּא הוּא. רַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל וְרַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמְרִים: נֶאֱמֶנֶת, רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ אוֹמֵר: לֹא מִפִּיהָ אָנוּ חַיִּין, אֶלָּא הֲרֵי זוֹ בְּחֶזְקַת בְּעוּלָה לְנָתִין וּלְמַמְזֵר, עַד שֶׁתָּבִיא רְאָיָה לִדְבָרֶיהָ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**or into a ruin,** which is typically located outside the city, and if a man and woman meet there it is presumably in order to engage in sexual relations, **and** people **said to her: What is the nature of this man** with whom you secluded? She said to them: **He is a priest, and he is the son of my father’s brother,** a respectable person of impeccable lineage. **Rabban Gamliel and Rabbi Eliezer say: She is deemed credible. Rabbi Yehoshua says:** It is **not** based on the statement emerging **from her mouth** that **we conduct our lives; rather, she** assumes **the presumptive status of** one who **engaged in intercourse with a Gibeonite or with a *mamzer*,** men of flawed lineage who disqualify her from marrying a priest, **until she brings proof** supporting **her statement.**


###### Ketubot 13b:2
[Ketubot 13b:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:2)

בִּשְׁלָמָא לִזְעֵירִי — הַיְינוּ דְּקָתָנֵי תַּרְתֵּי: לְסֵתֶר אוֹ לְחוּרְבָּה. אֶלָּא לְרַב אַסִּי דְּאָמַר נִבְעֲלָה, תַּרְתֵּי לְמָה לִי? חֲדָא קָתָנֵי: לְסֵתֶר דְּחוּרְבָּה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Granted, according to Ze’eiri,** who said that speaking means that she secluded herself, **that is** the reason **that** the *tanna* **teaches two** cases where there is merely concern: The case of: **Into seclusion,** where there is lesser concern that she engaged in intercourse, **and** the case of: **Into a ruin,** where there is greater concern. **However, according to Rav Asi, who said** that speaking means that **she had intercourse,** and only in that case is she not deemed credible according to Rabbi Yehoshua, **why do I** need **two** cases? The Gemara answers: According to Rav Asi, the *tanna* **is teaching one** case: If people saw a woman enter with one man **into the seclusion of a ruin,** where the likelihood is that that they entered to engage in relations.


###### Ketubot 13b:3
[Ketubot 13b:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:3)

וְהָא לְסֵתֶר אוֹ לְחוּרְבָּה קָתָנֵי! חֲדָא לְחוּרְבָּה דְמָתָא, וַחֲדָא לְחוּרְבָּה דְּדַבְרָא. וּצְרִיכִי, דְּאִי אַשְׁמְעִינַן חוּרְבָּה דְמָתָא — בְּהָא קָמַכְשַׁר רַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל, מִשּׁוּם דְּרוֹב כְּשֵׁרִים אֶצְלָהּ. אֲבָל לְחוּרְבָּה דְּדַבְרָא, דְּרוֹב פְּסוּלִין אֶצְלָהּ — אֵימָא מוֹדֶה לֵיהּ לְרַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **But isn’t** the mishna **teaching** two different cases: **Into seclusion or into a ruin?** The Gemara suggests a different explanation. According to Rav Asi, two cases are necessary, **one** with regard **to a ruin in the city and one** with regard **to a ruin in the field,** distant from the city. **And** both cases **are necessary, because if** the *tanna* **taught us** only the case of **a ruin in the city,** one might have concluded that **in that** case **Rabban Gamliel deems her fit** to marry a priest **due to** the fact **that the majority** of the people **in its proximity are honorable** and of impeccable lineage. **However,** with regard **to a ruin in the field, where the majority** of the people **in its proximity are unfit** and of flawed lineage, as people from all over the world pass the ruin in the field and the majority of the people in the world are of flawed lineage, **say** that Rabban Gamliel **concedes to Rabbi Yehoshua** and deems her unfit to marry a priest.


###### Ketubot 13b:4
[Ketubot 13b:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:4)

וְאִי אַשְׁמְעִינַן בְּהָהִיא — בְּהָהִיא קָאָמַר רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, אֲבָל בְּהָא — אֵימָא מוֹדֶה לְרַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל, צְרִיכָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And if** the *tanna* **taught us** only **that** case of a ruin in the field, one might have concluded that **in that** case **Rabbi Yehoshua said** she is not deemed credible, because the majority of the people there are of flawed lineage. **However here,** in the case of a ruin in the city, where the majority of the people are of impeccable lineage, **say** that Rabbi Yehoshua **concedes to Rabban Gamliel** that she is deemed credible. Therefore, both cases were **necessary.**


###### Ketubot 13b:5
[Ketubot 13b:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:5)

מֵיתִיבִי: זוֹ עֵדוּת שֶׁהָאִשָּׁה כְּשֵׁרָה לָהּ, וְרַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ אוֹמֵר: אֵינָהּ נֶאֱמֶנֶת. אָמַר לָהֶם רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ: אִי אַתֶּם מוֹדִים בִּשְׁבוּיָה שֶׁנִּשְׁבֵּית וְיֵשׁ לָהּ עֵדִים שֶׁנִּשְׁבֵּית, וְהִיא אוֹמֶרֶת טְהוֹרָה אֲנִי, שֶׁאֵינָהּ נֶאֱמֶנֶת?

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara **raises an objection** from the *Tosefta*: **This,** i.e., that she engaged in intercourse with a man of impeccable lineage, **is testimony that a woman is fit** to testify. **And Rabbi Yehoshua says: She is not deemed credible. Rabbi Yehoshua said to** the Sages: **Do you not agree in the case of a woman who was taken captive, and she has witnesses** testifying **that she was taken captive, and she says: I am pure,** i.e., I was not violated by my captors, **that she is not deemed credible?** The assumption in that case is that most captive women are violated by their captors.


###### Ketubot 13b:6
[Ketubot 13b:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:6)

אָמְרוּ לוֹ: אֲבָל. וּמָה הֶפְרֵשׁ יֵשׁ בֵּין זוֹ לָזוֹ? לָזוֹ — יֵשׁ עֵדִים, ולָזוֹ — אֵין לָהּ עֵדִים.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Sages **said to him: But** there is a difference between the cases. **And what difference is there between this** case of a captive, where the woman is not accorded credibility, **and that** case of a woman who secluded herself with a man? **For this** captive, **there are witnesses** that she was taken captive, and due to the prevalent immorality in that situation, she loses the presumptive status of virtue and is considered to have certainly engaged in intercourse. **But for this** woman who secluded herself with a man, **she does not have witnesses** that she engaged in intercourse. Since she could have claimed that she did not engage in intercourse and instead admitted that she engaged in intercourse and claimed that it was with a man of impeccable lineage, she should be accorded credibility.


###### Ketubot 13b:7
[Ketubot 13b:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:7)

אָמַר לָהֶם: אַף לָזוֹ יֵשׁ עֵדִים, שֶׁהֲרֵי כְּרֵיסָהּ בֵּין שִׁינֶּיהָ. אָמְרוּ לוֹ: רוֹב גּוֹיִם פְּרוּצִים בַּעֲרָיוֹת הֵם. אָמַר לָהֶן: אֵין אַפּוֹטְרוֹפּוֹס לַעֲרָיוֹת.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rabbi Yehoshua **said to them: Even for that** woman, the one who secluded herself, **there are witnesses, because her belly is between her teeth,** i.e., her pregnancy is conspicuous and therefore she does not have the option of claiming that she did not engage in intercourse. The Sages **said to him:** There remains a difference between the cases, as **most gentiles are steeped in sexual immorality.** Therefore, presumably, they engaged in intercourse with the captive woman. However, in the case of the woman in seclusion there is no presumption that she engaged in intercourse specifically with a man with flawed lineage. Rabbi Yehoshua **said to them: There is no steward for** restraining **sexual immorality,** and therefore, everyone is suspect in that regard. Therefore, this woman, since she engaged in intercourse, lost her presumptive status of virtue, and there is no basis to trust her that it was with a person of impeccable lineage.


###### Ketubot 13b:8
[Ketubot 13b:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:8)

בַּמֶּה דְּבָרִים אֲמוּרִים — בְּעֵדוּת אִשָּׁה בְּגוּפָהּ, אֲבָל עֵדוּת אִשָּׁה בְּבִתָּהּ — דִּבְרֵי הַכֹּל הַוָּלָד שְׁתוּקִי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The *baraita* continues: **In what** case **are these** divergent **statements** of Rabban Gamliel and Rabbi Yehoshua **said?** It is **in the case of the testimony of a woman with regard to herself,** to render her fit to marry a priest. **However,** in the case of **testimony of a woman with regard to** the fact that the father of **her daughter** is a man of unflawed lineage, **everyone agrees** that her testimony is not deemed credible, and the legal status of **the child** is that of **a *shetuki*,** the identity of whose father is unknown and to whom all the stringencies that apply to a *mamzer* apply, due the uncertainty of his lineage.


###### Ketubot 13b:9
[Ketubot 13b:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:9)

מַאי קָאָמַר לְהוּ וּמַאי קָמַהְדְּרִי לֵיהּ? הָכִי קָאָמְרִי לֵיהּ: הֲשַׁבְתָּנוּ עַל הַמְעוּבֶּרֶת. מָה תְּשִׁיבֵנוּ עַל הַמְדַבֶּרֶת? אָמַר לָהֶם: מְדַבֶּרֶת הַיְינוּ שְׁבוּיָה. אָמְרוּ לוֹ: שָׁאנֵי שְׁבוּיָה, דְּרוֹב גּוֹיִם פְּרוּצִים בַּעֲרָיוֹת הֵם. אָמַר לָהֶם: הָא נָמֵי, כֵּיוָן דְּאִיסְתַּתַּר, אֵין אַפּוֹטְרוֹפּוֹס לַעֲרָיוֹת.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara seeks to understand the exchange between Rabbi Yehoshua and the Sages. **What did he say to them and what did they reply to him?** It appears that they were not discussing the same case. **This is what** the Sages **are saying to him: You answered us concerning the pregnant woman,** asserting that there is testimony in the case of the pregnant woman comparable to the testimony in the case of the captive. However, **what will you answer us concerning the** woman who was seen **speaking** to a man? In that case, there is no testimony that she had intercourse. Rabbi Yehoshua **said to them:** The case of **speaking is the same as** the case of the **captive,** as there is reason to believe that she engaged in intercourse. The Sages **said to him:** The case of **a captive is different, as most gentiles are steeped in sexual immorality,** and presumably they engaged in intercourse with the captive woman. Rabbi Yehoshua **said to them:** In **this** case **too, since she secluded herself** with a man, based on the principle: **There is no steward for** restraining **sexual immorality,** presumably she engaged in intercourse with him.


###### Ketubot 13b:10
[Ketubot 13b:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:10)

קָתָנֵי מִיהַת תַּרְתֵּי — מְדַבֶּרֶת וּמְעוּבֶּרֶת. תְּיוּבְתָּא דְּרַב אַסִּי תְּיוּבְתָּא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
With regard to the dispute over the meaning of the term: Speaking, the Gemara says: **In any event,** from this discussion it is clear that the *tanna* **is teaching two** different cases, one case of **speaking,** where there is uncertainty whether she engaged in intercourse, **and** one case where she is **pregnant,** and there is no uncertainty in that regard. The Gemara suggests: This is **a conclusive refutation** of the opinion **of Rav Asi,** who explained that speaking in the mishna means that she engaged in intercourse. The Gemara concludes: Indeed, this is **a conclusive refutation** of his opinion.


###### Ketubot 13b:11
[Ketubot 13b:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:11)

וְתִיפּוֹק לֵיהּ דְּהָתָם רוֹב פְּסוּלִין אֶצְלָהּ, וְהָכָא רוֹב כְּשֵׁרִין אֶצְלָהּ. מְסַיַּיע לֵיהּ לְרַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן לֵוִי. דְּאָמַר רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן לֵוִי: לְדִבְרֵי הַמַּכְשִׁיר — מַכְשִׁיר אֲפִילּוּ בְּרוֹב פְּסוּלִין, לְדִבְרֵי הַפּוֹסֵל — פּוֹסֵל אֲפִילּוּ בְּרוֹב כְּשֵׁרִים.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks with regard to the *baraita*: **And let** the *tanna* **derive** this distinction between a captive woman and a woman who secluded herself with a man from the fact **that there,** in the case of the captive, **the majority** of the men **in her proximity are unfit** and of flawed lineage, **but here,** where she was secluded, **the majority of the men in her proximity are honorable** and of impeccable lineage. Since she is unmarried, most men are not unfit for her. The Gemara notes: The fact that the *tanna* did not derive the distinction from that source **supports** the opinion **of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, as Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi said:** According **to the statement of** Rabban Gamliel, **the one who deems her fit** to marry a priest, **he deems her fit even in** a case **where the majority of the men** in her proximity **are unfit.** According **to the statement of** Rabbi Yehoshua, **the one who deems her unfit** to marry a priest, **he deems her unfit even in** a case where **the majority** of the men in her proximity **are fit.**


###### Ketubot 13b:12
[Ketubot 13b:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:12)

אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: לְדִבְרֵי הַמַּכְשִׁיר בָּהּ — מַכְשִׁיר בְּבִתָּהּ. לְדִבְרֵי הַפּוֹסֵל בָּהּ — פּוֹסֵל בְּבִתָּהּ. וְרַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר אוֹמֵר: לְדִבְרֵי הַמַּכְשִׁיר בָּהּ — פּוֹסֵל בְּבִתָּהּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rabbi Yoḥanan said:** According **to the statement of the one who deems her fit** to marry a priest and accepts her claim that she engaged in intercourse with a man of unflawed lineage, **he deems her daughter fit** as well. According **to the statement of the one who deems her unfit, he deems her daughter unfit** as well. **But Rabbi Elazar says:** According **to the statement of the one who deems her fit, he deems her daughter unfit.**


###### Ketubot 13b:13
[Ketubot 13b:13](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:13)

אָמַר רַבָּה, מַאי טַעְמָא דְּרַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר: בִּשְׁלָמָא אִיהִי אִית לַהּ חֲזָקָה דְכַשְׁרוּת. בִּתָּהּ, לֵית לַהּ חֲזָקָה דְכַשְׁרוּת.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rabba said: What is the reason** for the opinion **of Rabbi Elazar,** who distinguishes between the effectiveness of the woman’s claim in determining her own status and its effectiveness in determining the status of her daughter? The reason is that **granted,** her claim is effective with regard to her status because **she has the presumptive status of fitness.** Therefore, until proven otherwise, she retains that status. **Her daughter,** the identity of whose father is unknown, **does not have the presumptive status of fitness.** Therefore, a full-fledged proof is required to establish her fitness.


###### Ketubot 13b:14
[Ketubot 13b:14](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:14)

אֵיתִיבֵיהּ רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר לְרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: בַּמֶּה דְּבָרִים אֲמוּרִים — בְּעֵדוּת אִשָּׁה בְּגוּפָהּ, אֲבָל עֵדוּת אִשָּׁה בְּבִתָּהּ —דִּבְרֵי הַכֹּל הַוָּלָד שְׁתוּקִי. מַאי לָאו שְׁתוּקִי, וּפָסוּל. לָא: שְׁתוּקִי, וְכָשֵׁר.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rabbi Elazar raised an objection to** the opinion of **Rabbi Yoḥanan** from the *baraita*: **In what** case **are these** disputing **statements** of Rabban Gamliel and Rabbi Yehoshua **said?** It is **in the case of a woman’s testimony with regard to herself. However,** in the case of **testimony of a woman with regard to her daughter, everyone agrees** that her testimony is not credible, and the legal status of **the child is** that of **a *shetuki*. What, is it not** that contrary to the opinion of Rabbi Yoḥanan, the *baraita* means that the child is **a *shetuki* and unfit** until proof can be brought that the lineage of the father is unflawed? The Gemara rejects that objection: **No,** the *baraita* means that the child is **a *shetuki*,** as her lineage is unclear, but she is nevertheless **fit.**


###### Ketubot 13b:15
[Ketubot 13b:15](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:15)

וּמִי אִיכָּא שְׁתוּקִי כָּשֵׁר? אִין, כְּדִשְׁמוּאֵל. דְּאָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: עֲשָׂרָה כֹּהֲנִים עוֹמְדִים, וּפֵירַשׁ אֶחָד מֵהֶם וּבָעַל — הַוָּלָד שְׁתוּקִי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **And is there** a case of **a *shetuki*** who is nevertheless **fit?** The Gemara answers: **Yes, as** in the statement **of Shmuel. As Shmuel said:** If **ten priests** were **standing and one of them left and engaged in intercourse, the child is a *shetuki*,** literally one who is silenced, because the identity of the father is unclear. In that case it is clear that the child is fit, because it is known that the father is a priest of flawless lineage.


###### Ketubot 13b:16
[Ketubot 13b:16](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:16)

מַאי ״שְׁתוּקִי״? אִילֵימָא שֶׁמַּשְׁתִּיקִין אוֹתוֹ מִנִּכְסֵי אָבִיו — פְּשִׁיטָא, וּמִי יָדְעִינַן אֲבוּהּ מַנּוּ? אֶלָּא שֶׁמַּשְׁתִּיקִין אוֹתוֹ מִדִּין כְּהוּנָּה, דִּכְתִיב: ״וְהָיְתָה לּוֹ וּלְזַרְעוֹ אַחֲרָיו בְּרִית כְּהֻנַּת עוֹלָם״, מִי שֶׁזַּרְעוֹ מְיוּחָס אַחֲרָיו, יָצָא זֶה שֶׁאֵין זַרְעוֹ מְיוּחָס אַחֲרָיו.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: In **what** sense **is** this child **a *shetuki*? If we say** that it means **that one silences him from** a claim to **his father’s assets** and he does not inherit his estate, that is **obvious. Do we know who his father is?** It could be any one of the ten. **Rather,** it means **that one silences him from** a claim to **the status of priesthood.** Although there is no doubt that his father is a priest, the son is not a priest, **as it is written: “And it shall be for him and for his offspring after him an everlasting covenant of priesthood”** (Numbers 25:13). From this it is derived: In the case of a priest **whose offspring are attributed to him,** his offspring are priests; to the **exclusion of this** priest, **whose offspring are not attributed to him,** and whose offspring are not priests. This child, therefore, is a *shetuki* only in the sense that he may not perform the Temple service as a priest. However, he is permitted to marry a Jewish woman.


###### Ketubot 13b:17
[Ketubot 13b:17](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/13b:17)

הָהוּא אָרוּס וַאֲרוּסָתוֹ דַּאֲתוֹ לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב יוֹסֵף, הִיא אָמְרָה: מִינֵּיהּ, וְהוּא אָמַר:

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Apropos paternity, the Gemara relates: There was **a certain betrothed man and his betrothed,** who was pregnant, **who came before Rav Yosef. She said** that she conceived **from** relations with **him, and he said:**