## Ketubot Daf 21b

###### Ketubot 21b:1
[Ketubot 21b:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:1)

אִיקְּלַע רַבְנַאי אֲחוּהּ דְּרַבִּי חִיָּיא בַּר אַבָּא לְמִזְבַּן שׁוּמְשְׁמֵי וַאֲמַר: הָכִי אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: עֵד וְדַיָּין מִצְטָרְפִין. אֲמַר אַמֵּימָר: כַּמָּה מְעַלְּיָא הָא שְׁמַעְתָּא! אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב אָשֵׁי לְאַמֵּימָר: מִשּׁוּם דְּקַלְּסַהּ אֲבוּהּ דְּאִמָּךְ, אַתְּ נָמֵי מְקַלְּסַתְּ לַהּ?! כְּבָר פַּרְכַהּ רָבָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara relates: **Ravnai, brother of Rabbi Ḥiyya bar Abba, happened to** come and **sell sesame, and he said** that **this** is what **Shmuel said: A witness and a judge join** together to testify. **Ameimar said: How excellent is this *halakha*. Rav Ashi said to Ameimar: Due to** the fact **that** Rami bar Ḥama, **father of your mother, praised it, you also praise** [***mekallesat***] **it? Rava already refuted** that statement and proved it incorrect.


###### Ketubot 21b:2
[Ketubot 21b:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:2)

אָמַר רַב סָפְרָא אָמַר רַבִּי אַבָּא אָמַר רַב יִצְחָק בַּר שְׁמוּאֵל בַּר מָרְתָא אָמַר רַב הוּנָא, וְאָמְרִי לֵיהּ אָמַר רַב הוּנָא אָמַר רַב: שְׁלֹשָׁה שֶׁיָּשְׁבוּ לְקַיֵּים אֶת הַשְּׁטָר, שְׁנַיִם מַכִּירִין חֲתִימוּת יְדֵי עֵדִים, וְאֶחָד אֵינוֹ מַכִּיר. עַד שֶׁלֹּא חָתְמוּ — מְעִידִין בְּפָנָיו וְחוֹתֵם. מִשֶּׁחָתְמוּ — אֵין מְעִידִין בְּפָנָיו וְחוֹתֵם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ **Rav Safra said** that **Rabbi Abba said** that **Rav Yitzhak bar Shmuel bar Marta said** that **Rav Huna said;** and some say that **Rav Huna said** that **Rav said:** With regard to **three** judges **who convened to ratify a document,** and **two** of them **recognize the signatures of the witnesses** on the document, **and one does not recognize** them; **as long as** the two judges **did not** yet **sign** to ratify the document, they **testify** and authenticate the signatures **before** the third judge, and based on that testimony, the third judge **signs** the document of ratification together with the first two judges. However, **once** the two judges **signed** the ratification, **they may not testify before him and** have him **sign** the ratification. The formula of the ratification is: We verified and ratified this document in a forum of three. Since when the first two judges signed the ratification, they were not a forum of three, the ratification is invalid.


###### Ketubot 21b:3
[Ketubot 21b:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:3)

וּמִי כָּתְבִינַן? וְהָאָמַר רַב פַּפִּי מִשְּׁמֵיהּ דְּרָבָא: הַאי אַשַּׁרְתָּא דְּדַיָּינֵי דְּנִיכְתַּב מִקַּמֵּיהּ דְּנַיחְווֹ סָהֲדִי אַחֲתִימַת יְדַיְיהוּ — פְּסוּלָה, דְּמִתְחֲזֵי כְּשִׁקְרָא, הָכָא נָמֵי מִתְחֲזֵי כְּשִׁקְרָא!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **And do we write** the ratification of a document before all of the judges verify the signatures of the witnesses? **But didn’t Rav Pappi say in the name of Rava: This ratification of judges that was written before the witnesses related** testimony **about their signatures is invalid,** even if the witnesses later authenticate their signatures, as **it seems like a lie,** since when they drafted the ratification they were not yet aware that they would be able to ratify the document? **Here too,** when the judges drafted the ratification before the third judge can verify the signatures, **it seems like a lie.**


###### Ketubot 21b:4
[Ketubot 21b:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:4)

אֶלָּא אֵימָא: עַד שֶׁלֹּא כָּתְבוּ — מְעִידִין בְּפָנָיו וְחוֹתֵם, מִשֶּׁכָּתְבוּ — אֵין מְעִידִין בְּפָנָיו וְחוֹתֵם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara answers: **Rather,** emend the statement and **say: As long as** the two judges **did not** yet **write** the ratification of the document, they **testify** and authenticate the signatures **before** the third judge, and based on that testimony, the third judge **signs** the ratification together with the first two judges. However, **once** the two judges **have written** the ratification, **they may not testify before him and** have him **sign** the ratification.


###### Ketubot 21b:5
[Ketubot 21b:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:5)

שְׁמַע מִינַּהּ תְּלָת. שְׁמַע מִינַּהּ: עֵד נַעֲשֶׂה דַּיָּין, וּשְׁמַע מִינַּהּ: דַּיָּינִין הַמַּכִּירִין חֲתִימוּת יְדֵי עֵדִים — אֵינָן צְרִיכִין לְהָעִיד בִּפְנֵיהֶם, וּשְׁמַע מִינַּהּ: דַּיָּינִין שֶׁאֵין מַכִּירִין חֲתִימוּת יְדֵי עֵדִים — צְרִיכִין לְהָעִיד בִּפְנֵי כׇּל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara notes: **Conclude from** the statement of Rav Huna **three** *halakhot*: **Conclude from it that a witness** can **become a judge,** as the two judges who testified to authenticate the signatures signed the ratification as judges and were not disqualified due to a conflict of interest. **And conclude from it** that **judges who recognize the signatures of** the **witnesses do not require** other witnesses **to testify before them. And conclude from it** that in cases involving **judges who do not recognize the signatures of the witnesses,** witnesses **are required to testify before each and every one of them,** and no judge may issue a ruling based on testimony brought before the other judges.


###### Ketubot 21b:6
[Ketubot 21b:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:6)

מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רַב אָשֵׁי: בִּשְׁלָמָא עֵד נַעֲשֶׂה דַּיָּין, שָׁמְעִינַן מִינַּהּ, אֶלָּא דַּיָּינִין הַמַּכִּירִין חֲתִימוּת יְדֵי עֵדִים אֵין צְרִיכִין לְהָעִיד בִּפְנֵיהֶם — דִּלְמָא לְעוֹלָם אֵימָא לָךְ: צְרִיכִין, וְשָׁאנֵי הָכָא דְּקָא מִקַּיְימָא הַגָּדָה בְּחַד.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rav Ashi** strongly **objects** to the conclusions drawn by the Gemara. **Granted,** the fact that **a witness** can **become a judge we** can **conclude from** the statement of Rav Huna. **However,** the fact that **judges who recognize the signatures of witnesses do not require** other witnesses **to testify before them** cannot be concluded from the statement of Rav Huna. **Perhaps, I will say to you** that **actually** judges **require** witnesses to testify before them; **and here,** in this case, **it is different, as** the requirement of the **statement** of testimony **is fulfilled with** the testimony of the two judges before the **one** judge who did not recognize the signatures. However, in a case where there is no statement of testimony at all, there could be no ratification of the document.


###### Ketubot 21b:7
[Ketubot 21b:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:7)

וְדַיָּינִין שֶׁאֵין מַכִּירִין חֲתִימוּת יְדֵי עֵדִים צְרִיכִין לְהָעִיד בִּפְנֵי כׇּל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד, דִּלְמָא לְעוֹלָם אֵימָא לָךְ: אֵין צְרִיכִין, וְשָׁאנֵי הָכָא דְּלָא קָא מִקַּיְימָא הַגָּדָה כְּלָל.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And** furthermore, with regard to the conclusion that in cases of **judges who do not recognize the signatures of the witnesses,** witnesses **are required to testify before each and every one** of them, **perhaps, I will say to you** that **actually,** in general, witnesses **are not required** to testify before each and every judge; **and here,** in this case, **it is different, as** were it not for the testimony of the two judges before the third judge, the requirement of the **statement** of testimony would **not be fulfilled** at all. In a case where there is other testimony, perhaps one may rely on the knowledge of others in order to ratify the document.


###### Ketubot 21b:8
[Ketubot 21b:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:8)

יְתֵיב רַבִּי אַבָּא וְקָאָמַר לַהּ לְהָא שְׁמַעְתָּא דְּעֵד נַעֲשֶׂה דַּיָּין, אֵיתִיבֵיהּ רַב סָפְרָא לְרַבִּי אַבָּא: רָאוּהוּ שְׁלֹשָׁה, וְהֵן בֵּית דִּין — יַעַמְדוּ שְׁנַיִם וְיוֹשִׁיבוּ מֵחַבְרֵיהֶם אֵצֶל הַיָּחִיד, וְיָעִידוּ בִּפְנֵיהֶם, וְיֹאמְרוּ: ״מְקוּדָּשׁ הַחֹדֶשׁ, מְקוּדָּשׁ״. שֶׁאֵין הַיָּחִיד נֶאֱמָן עַל יְדֵי עַצְמוֹ. וְאִי סָלְקָא דַעְתָּךְ דְּעֵד נַעֲשֶׂה דַּיָּין, לְמָה לִי כּוּלֵּי הַאי? לֵיתְבוּ בְּדוּכְתַּיְיהוּ וְלִיקַּדְּשׁוּ!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara relates: **Rabbi Abba sat and stated this *halakha* that a witness** can **become a judge. Rav Safra raised an objection to** the opinion of **Rabbi Abba** from a mishna (*Rosh HaShana* 25b): If **three** people **saw** the new moon **and they** constitute **a court, two** of them **should stand and seat two of their colleagues** to sit **near** the remaining **individual** judge. **And** the two **should testify before** the three judges, **and they should** then **recite** the standard formula for sanctifying the month: **Sanctified is the month, sanctified.** Two others must join the original judge to form a tribunal of three judges, **as an individual** judge **is not deemed credible** to sanctify the month **by himself. And if it enters your mind** to say **that a witness** can **become a judge, why do I** need **all this? Let** the three judges remain **seated in their place and sanctify** the month, as they can be both witnesses and judges.


###### Ketubot 21b:9
[Ketubot 21b:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:9)

אֲמַר לֵיהּ: אַף לְדִידִי קַשְׁיָא לִי, וּשְׁאֵילְתֵּיהּ לְרַב יִצְחָק בַּר שְׁמוּאֵל בַּר מָרְתָא, וְרַב יִצְחָק לְרַב הוּנָא, וְרַב הוּנָא לְחִיָּיא בַּר רַב, וְחִיָּיא בַּר רַב לְרַב, וַאֲמַר לְהוּ: הַנַּח לְעֵדוּת הַחֹדֶשׁ דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא, וְקִיּוּם שְׁטָרוֹת דְּרַבָּנַן.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rabbi Abba **said to** Rav Safra: That mishna **was difficult for me** to understand **as well, and I asked Rav Yitzḥak bar Shmuel bar Marta** about **it, and Rav Yitzḥak** asked **Rav Huna, and Rav Huna** asked **Ḥiyya bar Rav, and Ḥiyya bar Rav** asked **Rav, and** Rav **said to them: Leave** the case of **testimony** to sanctify **the month, as** it is mandated **by Torah** law, and the guidelines are more stringent, **and** the requirement of **ratification of documents is** mandated **by rabbinic** law, where the guidelines are more lenient. In that case a witness can become a judge.


###### Ketubot 21b:10
[Ketubot 21b:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:10)

אָמַר רַבִּי אַבָּא אָמַר רַב הוּנָא אָמַר רַב: שְׁלֹשָׁה שֶׁיָּשְׁבוּ לְקַיֵּים אֶת הַשְּׁטָר, וְקָרָא עַרְעָר עַל אֶחָד מֵהֶן. עַד שֶׁלֹּא חָתְמוּ — מְעִידִין עָלָיו וְחוֹתֵם. מִשֶּׁחָתְמוּ — אֵין מְעִידִין עָלָיו וְחוֹתֵם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ **Rabbi Abba said** that **Rav Huna said** that **Rav said:** In the case of **three** judges **who convened** as a tribunal **to ratify a document, and** a person **raised a challenge** with regard to the fitness **of one of them** to serve as a judge, thereby preventing ratification of the document, **as long as they did not** yet **sign** the ratification, the other two judges **may testify about** the acceptability of the judge whose fitness was challenged, and **he** then **signs** the ratification. However, **once they signed** the ratification, **they may no** longer **testify about his** fitness **and** thereby enable him to **sign** the ratification. Once they sign, their testimony is no longer impartial because there is a conflict of interest as they seek to avoid being associated with a tribunal tainted by an unfit judge.


###### Ketubot 21b:11
[Ketubot 21b:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/21b:11)

עַרְעָר דְּמַאי? אִי עַרְעָר דְּגַזְלָנוּתָא —

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara elaborates: With regard to **a challenge of what** sort was this *halakha* stated? **If** it was **a challenge** based on an allegation **of theft,**