## Ketubot Daf 84b

###### Ketubot 84b:1
[Ketubot 84b:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:1)

וְרַבִּי עֲקִיבָא, תְּפִיסָה לָא מַהְנְיָא כְּלָל? אָמַר רָבָא אָמַר רַב נַחְמָן: וְהוּא שֶׁתָּפַס מֵחַיִּים.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **And** according to **Rabbi Akiva,** is the **seizure** of a debtor’s assets by a creditor, though there are others who have a more immediate right to the assets, **not effective at all? Rava said** that **Rav Naḥman said: And this,** that Rabbi Akiva agrees that the seizure of assets is effective, is the case **provided that one seized** the property **from** the debtor while he was **alive.** However, after his death the assets belong to the heirs.


###### Ketubot 84b:2
[Ketubot 84b:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:2)

וּלְרַבִּי טַרְפוֹן, דְּמַנְּחִי הֵיכָא? רַב וּשְׁמוּאֵל דְּאָמְרִי תַּרְוַיְיהוּ: וְהוּא שֶׁצְּבוּרִין וּמוּנָּחִין בִּרְשׁוּת הָרַבִּים, אֲבָל בְּסִימְטָא — לֹא. וְרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן וְרֵישׁ לָקִישׁ דְּאָמְרִי תַּרְוַיְיהוּ: אֲפִילּוּ בְּסִימְטָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **And according to Rabbi Tarfon,** who holds that whoever first takes possession of the produce has acquired it, **where was** this produce **placed?** The Gemara presents a dispute: There is the opinion of **Rav and Shmuel, who both say: And this,** that whoever first takes possession of the produce has acquired it, is the *halakha* **provided that** the produce is **arranged in a pile and placed in the public domain.** Since the public domain is not a suitable location for an act of acquisition, anyone can take the produce and acquire it. **However,** if it is situated **in an alley [*simta*],** a place adjacent to the public domain that is rarely frequented by the public, the produce does **not** belong to the first one who obtains it. Because an acquisition can be performed in an alley, any items that had belonged to the deceased are immediately acquired by the heirs. **And** there is the opinion of **Rabbi Yoḥanan and Reish Lakish, who both say: Even** if one seizes produce left **in an alley,** he acquires it.


###### Ketubot 84b:3
[Ketubot 84b:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:3)

דּוּן דַּיָּינֵי כְּרַבִּי טַרְפוֹן, וְאַהְדְּרֵיהּ רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ לְעוֹבָדָא מִינַּיְיהוּ. אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: עָשִׂיתָ כְּשֶׁל תּוֹרָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara relates: There were **judges** who **judged** a case of this kind **in accordance with** the opinion of **Rabbi Tarfon, and Reish Lakish reversed their action.** He dismissed the judges’ decision and restored the money to the heirs, in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Akiva. **Rabbi Yoḥanan** criticized his ruling and **said to him: You acted** in this case **like** one acts with regard to a ruling **of Torah** law, where any incorrect action taken by the court must be corrected.


###### Ketubot 84b:4
[Ketubot 84b:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:4)

לֵימָא בְּהָא קָמִיפַּלְגִי: דְּמָר סָבַר טָעָה בִּדְבַר מִשְׁנָה חוֹזֵר, וּמָר סָבַר טָעָה בִּדְבַר מִשְׁנָה אֵינוֹ חוֹזֵר?

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara suggests: **Let us say that they disagree about this: That** one **Sage,** Reish Lakish, **holds** that if one **erred in a matter** that appears in the **Mishna,** the decision is **revoked. And** one **Sage,** Rabbi Yoḥanan, **holds** that if one **erred in a matter** that appears in the **Mishna,** the decision is **not revoked.**


###### Ketubot 84b:5
[Ketubot 84b:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:5)

לָא, דְּכוּלֵּי עָלְמָא טָעָה בִּדְבַר מִשְׁנָה חוֹזֵר. וְהָכָא בְּהָא קָמִיפַּלְגִי: מָר סָבַר הֲלָכָה כְּרַבִּי עֲקִיבָא מֵחֲבֵירוֹ וְלֹא מֵרַבּוֹ, וּמָר סָבַר הֲלָכָה אֲפִילּוּ מֵרַבּוֹ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara refutes this suggestion: **No,** it can be explained that according to **everyone,** where the judge **erred in a matter** that appears in the **Mishna,** the decision is **revoked, and here they disagree about this:** One **Sage,** Rabbi Yoḥanan, **holds** that the ***halakha*** is **in accordance with** the opinion of **Rabbi Akiva** in his disputes with **his colleague, but not** in his disputes with **his teacher,** and Rabbi Tarfon was Rabbi Akiva’s teacher. **And** one **Sage,** Reish Lakish, **holds** that the ***halakha*** is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Akiva **even** in his disputes with **his teacher.**


###### Ketubot 84b:6
[Ketubot 84b:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:6)

וְאִיבָּעֵית אֵימָא: דְּכוּלֵּי עָלְמָא הֲלָכָה כְּרַבִּי עֲקִיבָא מֵחֲבֵירוֹ וְלֹא מֵרַבּוֹ. וְהָכָא בְּהָא קָמִיפַּלְגִי: מָר סָבַר רַבִּי טַרְפוֹן רַבּוֹ הֲוָה, וּמָר סָבַר חֲבֵירוֹ הֲוָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And if you wish, say** instead **that everyone** agrees that the ***halakha*** is **in accordance with** the opinion of **Rabbi Akiva** in his disputes with **his colleague but not** in his disputes with **his teacher. And here they disagree about this:** One **Sage,** Rabbi Yoḥanan, **holds** that **Rabbi Tarfon was** Rabbi Akiva’s **teacher, and** one **Sage,** Reish Lakish, **holds** that Rabbi Tarfon **was his colleague.**


###### Ketubot 84b:7
[Ketubot 84b:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:7)

וְאִיבָּעֵית אֵימָא: דְּכוּלֵּי עָלְמָא חֲבֵירוֹ הֲוָה, וְהָכָא בְּהָא קָמִיפַּלְגִי: מָר סָבַר הֲלָכָה אִיתְּמַר, וּמָר סָבַר מַטִּין אִיתְּמַר.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And if you wish, say** instead **that everyone** agrees that Rabbi Tarfon **was** Rabbi Akiva’s **colleague, and here they disagree about this:** One **Sage,** Reish Lakish, **holds** that the principle that the law is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Akiva **was stated** as the ***halakha*. And** one **Sage,** Rabbi Yoḥanan, **holds** that what **was stated** was that **one is inclined** to follow the opinion of Rabbi Akiva. Therefore, although Rabbi Akiva’s opinion is followed *ab initio*, the *halakha* was never established conclusively in accordance with it. As such, if judges went against the principle that the *halakha* follows Rabbi Akiva in opposition to his colleague, the Sages do not revoke their decision.


###### Ketubot 84b:8
[Ketubot 84b:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:8)

קָרִיבֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן תְּפוּס פָּרָה דְיַתְמֵי מִסִּימְטָא. אֲתוֹ לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן, אֲמַר לְהוּ: שַׁפִּיר תְּפַסְתּוּהָ. אֲתוֹ לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן לָקִישׁ, אָמַר לְהוּ: זִילוּ אַהְדּוּר. אֲתוֹ לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן. אֲמַר לְהוּ: מָה אֶעֱשֶׂה? שֶׁכְּנֶגְדִּי חָלוּק עָלַי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara relates: **The relatives of Rabbi Yoḥanan seized a cow of orphans from an alley** because the orphans’ father owed them money. **They came before Rabbi Yoḥanan** for judgment, and **he said to them:** It **is well** that **you seized** the cow and it is yours, in accordance with the ruling of Rabbi Tarfon. **They** subsequently **came before Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish,** who **said to them: Go** and **return** the cow to the orphans. **They** again **came before Rabbi Yoḥanan,** complaining that Reish Lakish had told them they must give back the cow, in opposition to Rabbi Yoḥanan’s ruling. **He said to them: What can I do, as one whose** stature **corresponds to my** stature **disagrees with me,** and I cannot dismiss his opinion.


###### Ketubot 84b:9
[Ketubot 84b:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:9)

הָהוּא בַּקָּרָא דְיַתְמֵי דְּתָפְסִי תּוֹרָא מִינֵּיהּ. בַּעַל חוֹב אָמַר: מֵחַיִּים תְּפֵיסְנָא לֵיהּ. וּבַקָּרָא אָמַר: לְאַחַר מִיתָה תַּפְסֵיהּ. אֲתוֹ לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב נַחְמָן. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: אִית לְךָ סָהֲדֵי דְּתַפְסֵיהּ? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: לָאו. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: מִגּוֹ דְּיָכוֹל לְמֵימַר ״לָקוּחַ הוּא בְּיָדִי״, יָכוֹל נָמֵי לְמֵימַר ״מֵחַיִּים תְּפֵיסְנָא לֵיהּ״.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara relates another incident: There was **a certain herdsman** caring for the cattle **of orphans from whom** a creditor **seized an ox** as payment for a debt of the orphans’ father. The **creditor said: I seized it from** the herdsman **while** the debtor was still **alive.** In such a case, the action is effective even according to Rabbi Akiva, as stated earlier. **And the herdsman said: He seized it after** the debtor’s **death. They came before Rav Naḥman** for a ruling. Rav Naḥman **said to** the herdsman: Do **you have witnesses that he seized** the ox **from you? He said to him: No.** Rav Naḥman **said to him:** In that case, **since** the claimant **can say: It** is **in my possession** because **it was purchased** by me, as there is no proof that he gained possession of the ox unlawfully, **he can also say: I seized it from** the herdsman **while** the deceased was still **alive.**


###### Ketubot 84b:10
[Ketubot 84b:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:10)

וְהָאָמַר רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ: הַגּוֹדְרוֹת אֵין לָהֶן חֲזָקָה! שָׁאנֵי תּוֹרָא דִּמְסִירָה לְרוֹעֶה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **But didn’t Reish Lakish say** that **moving livestock,** e.g., sheep and oxen, provide **no presumption** of ownership to whoever is in possession of them? Since they wander from place to place, a person cannot claim that his mere possession of livestock demonstrates ownership, because it may have wandered into his property on its own. The Gemara answers: **An ox is different** from other livestock, **as** it **is handed over to a shepherd,** who does not let it wander off. Consequently, possession of an ox does establish a presumption of ownership.


###### Ketubot 84b:11
[Ketubot 84b:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:11)

דְּבֵי נְשִׂיאָה תְּפוּס אַמְתָא דְיַתְמֵי מִסִּימְטָא. יְתֵיב רַבִּי אֲבָהוּ וְרַבִּי חֲנִינָא בַּר פַּפִּי וְרַבִּי יִצְחָק נַפָּחָא, וִיתֵיב רַבִּי אַבָּא גַּבַּיְיהוּ. אֲמַר לְהוּ: שַׁפִּיר תָּפְסִיתוּהָ. אֲמַר לְהוּ רַבִּי אַבָּא: מִשּׁוּם דְּבֵי נְשִׂיאָה נִינְהוּ מְחַנְּפִיתוּ לְהוּ? וְהָא דּוּן דַּיָּינֵי כְּרַבִּי טַרְפוֹן, וְאַהְדְּרֵיהּ רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ עוֹבָדָא מִינַּיְיהוּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara relates another incident: The members of **the house of the prince** of Eretz Yisrael **seized** hold of **a maidservant of orphans in an alley,** as payment for a debt owed to them by the orphans’ father. **Rabbi Abbahu and Rabbi Ḥanina bar Pappi and Rabbi Yitzḥak Nappaḥa were sitting** as judges, **and Rabbi Abba was sitting with them.** Rabbi Abbahu **said to them:** It **is well** that **you seized** the maidservant. **Rabbi Abba said to** the judges: Just **because they are** members of **the house of the prince, will you curry favor with them** by rendering an incorrect verdict? Isn’t it the *halakha* that there were **judges** who **judged** a case of this kind **in accordance with** the opinion of **Rabbi Tarfon, and Reish Lakish reversed their action,** indicating that the *halakha* is not in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Tarfon?


###### Ketubot 84b:12
[Ketubot 84b:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Ketubot/r/84b:12)

יֵימַר בַּר חָשׁוּ הֲוָה מַסֵּיק בֵּיהּ זוּזֵי בְּהָהוּא גַּבְרָא, שְׁכֵיב וּשְׁבַק אַרְבָּא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ לִשְׁלוּחֵיהּ: זִיל, תְּפַסָה נִיהֲלִי. אֲזַל תַּפְסַהּ. פְּגַעוּ בֵּיהּ רַב פָּפָּא וְרַב הוּנָא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, אֲמַרוּ לֵיהּ: אַתְּ תּוֹפֵס לְבַעַל חוֹב בְּמָקוֹם שֶׁחָב לַאֲחֵרִים. וְאָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: הַתּוֹפֵס לְבַעַל חוֹב בְּמָקוֹם שֶׁחָב לַאֲחֵרִים

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara relates another incident: A man called **Yeimar bar Ḥashu was owed money by a certain man** who **died and left** behind **a boat.** Yeimar bar Ḥashu **said to his agent: Go** and **seize** the boat **for me.** The agent **went** and **seized it. Rav Pappa and Rav Huna, son of Rav Yehoshua, encountered him. They said to him: You are seizing** assets **for a creditor in a situation** where your action will cause **a disadvantage for others,** as the debtor owed money to other people as well. **And Rabbi Yoḥanan said** that **one who seizes** assets **for a creditor in a situation** that will result in **a disadvantage for others**