## Kiddushin Daf 64b

###### Kiddushin 64b:1
[Kiddushin 64b:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:1)

דְּמוּחְזָק לַן בְּאַחֵי וְלָא מוּחְזָק לַן בִּבְנֵי, דְּאָמְרִינַן: ״מָה לִי לְשַׁקֵּר״: מַאי קָאָמַר, לְמִיפְטְרַהּ מִיָּבָם? מָצֵי אֲמַר: פָּטַרְנָא לִךְ בְּגִיטָּא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
a case **where we have a presumptive status that** he has **brothers, but we do not have a presumptive status that** he has **children,** although no full-fledged testimony has been submitted for either claim. **As** in that case **we say** and apply the logic of: **Why would I lie?** In other words, if he were lying he would have stated a more credible claim or performed an action achieving the desired result. The Gemara explains: For **what** reason **is he saying** that he has children or that he has no brothers, if not **to exempt her from a *yavam*?** But if so, **he can say** to her instead: **I exempt you by** means of **a bill of divorce.** Consequently, it can be assumed that he is telling the truth when he says that he has children.


###### Kiddushin 64b:2
[Kiddushin 64b:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:2)

רַבִּי סָבַר: ״מָה לִי לְשַׁקֵּר״ כִּי עֵדִים דָּמֵי, וְאָתוּ עֵדִים עָקְרִי חֲזָקָה. וְרַבִּי נָתָן סָבַר: ״מָה לִי לְשַׁקֵּר״ כִּי חֲזָקָה דָּמֵי, לָא אַתְיָא חֲזָקָה וְעָקְרָה חֲזָקָה לִגְמָרֵי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
In light of the above explanation, the Gemara clarifies the dispute in the *baraita*. **Rabbi** Yehuda HaNasi **maintains** that the claim of: **Why would I lie,** is **considered like** the testimony of **witnesses, and witnesses** can **come and uproot a presumption.** Therefore, he does not have the power to contradict his previous claim and say that he has no children and render her forbidden at the time of his death. **And Rabbi Natan maintains** that: **Why would I lie,** is **considered like a presumption,** and **a presumption cannot come and uproot** another **presumption entirely.** As a result, he is deemed credible even for the purpose of rendering her forbidden, i.e., if he says at the time of his death that he has no children, the earlier presumption that he had brothers, but no children, is reinstated.


###### Kiddushin 64b:3
[Kiddushin 64b:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:3)

**מַתְנִי׳** הַמְקַדֵּשׁ אֶת בִּתּוֹ סְתָם – אֵין הַבּוֹגְרוֹת בַּכְּלָל. מִי שֶׁיֵּשׁ לוֹ שְׁתֵּי כִּיתֵּי בָנוֹת מִשְׁתֵּי נָשִׁים, וְאָמַר: ״קִדַּשְׁתִּי אֶת בִּתִּי הַגְּדוֹלָה, וְאֵינִי יוֹדֵעַ אִם גְּדוֹלָה שֶׁבַּגְּדוֹלוֹת, אוֹ גְּדוֹלָה שֶׁבַּקְּטַנּוֹת, אוֹ קְטַנָּה שֶׁבַּגְּדוֹלוֹת שֶׁהִיא גְּדוֹלָה מִן הַגְּדוֹלוֹת שֶׁבַּקְּטַנּוֹת״ – כּוּלָּן אֲסוּרוֹת חוּץ מִן הַקְּטַנָּה שֶׁבַּקְּטַנּוֹת, דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי מֵאִיר. רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר: כּוּלָּן מוּתָּרוֹת, חוּץ מִן הַגְּדוֹלָה שֶׁבַּגְּדוֹלוֹת.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**MISHNA:** In the case of **one who betroths his daughter** to a man **without specification,** i.e., without specifying which daughter he meant, **the grown women are not included** among those who might be betrothed, since he does not have the right to betroth them. With regard to **one who has two groups** of **daughters from two women,** i.e., one group of daughters from each wife, **and he said: I betrothed my elder daughter** to someone **but I do not know if** I meant **the eldest of the older** group of daughters, **or the eldest of the younger** group of daughters, **or the youngest of the older** group, **who is** nevertheless **older than the eldest of the younger** group, **all** the daughters **are forbidden, except for the youngest of the younger** group. This is **the statement of Rabbi Meir. Rabbi Yosei says:** Despite the uncertainty, **they are all permitted except for the eldest of the older** group, as one who says elder without further specification means the oldest of them all.


###### Kiddushin 64b:4
[Kiddushin 64b:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:4)

״קִדַּשְׁתִּי אֶת בִּתִּי הַקְּטַנָּה, וְאֵינִי יוֹדֵעַ אִם קְטַנָּה שֶׁבַּקְּטַנּוֹת, אוֹ קְטַנָּה שֶׁבַּגְּדוֹלוֹת, אוֹ גְּדוֹלָה שֶׁבַּקְּטַנּוֹת שֶׁהִיא קְטַנָּה מִן הַקְּטַנּוֹת שֶׁבַּגְּדוֹלוֹת״ – כּוּלָּן אֲסוּרוֹת חוּץ מִן הַגְּדוֹלָה שֶׁבַּגְּדוֹלוֹת, דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי מֵאִיר. רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר: כּוּלָּן מוּתָּרוֹת, חוּץ מִן הַקְּטַנָּה שֶׁבַּקְּטַנּוֹת.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Similarly, if one said: **I betrothed my younger daughter, but I do not know if** I meant **the youngest of the younger** group, **or the youngest of the older** group, **or the eldest of the younger** group **who is younger than the youngest of the older** group, **they are all forbidden, except for the eldest of the older** group. This is **the statement of Rabbi Meir. Rabbi Yosei says: They are all permitted except for the youngest of the younger** group.


###### Kiddushin 64b:5
[Kiddushin 64b:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:5)

**גְּמָ׳** הָא קְטַנּוֹת בַּכְּלָל,

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**GEMARA:** The Gemara asks: From the ruling of the mishna, that one who betroths his daughter without further specification certainly did not betroth an adult daughter, it may be inferred that all **minor girls are included** in the uncertainty if he had more than one.


###### Kiddushin 64b:6
[Kiddushin 64b:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:6)

שָׁמְעַתְּ מִינַּהּ: קִידּוּשִׁין שֶׁאֵין מְסוּרִים לְבִיאָה, הָווּ קִידּוּשִׁין! הָכָא בְּמַאי עָסְקִינַן, כְּשֶׁאֵין שָׁם אֶלָּא גְּדוֹלָה וּקְטַנָּה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
One can **learn from** the mishna **that betrothal that is not given to consummation,** i.e., where the husband may not consummate the marriage, in this case because each of the women might not be his wife but his wife’s sister, **is** nevertheless considered **betrothal** to the extent that each of the women requires a bill of divorce to render her permitted to marry someone else. This contradicts the opinion of Rava that betrothal that is not given to consummation does not take effect at all. The Gemara rejects this: **Here we are dealing with** a case in **which there are only** two daughters, **an adult woman and a minor girl.**


###### Kiddushin 64b:7
[Kiddushin 64b:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:7)

וְהָא ״בּוֹגְרוֹת״ קָתָנֵי! מַאי בּוֹגְרוֹת – בּוֹגְרוֹת דְּעָלְמָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara questions this explanation: **But** the mishna **teaches: Grown women,** in the plural. The Gemara explains: **What** is the meaning of **grown women?** The mishna is not referring to a father who has more than one adult daughter. Rather, it means **grown women in general.** In other words, whenever men betroth one of their daughters, their daughters who are grown women are not under consideration.


###### Kiddushin 64b:8
[Kiddushin 64b:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:8)

פְּשִׁיטָא, בּוֹגְרוֹת מַאי עֲבִידְתַּיְיהוּ? הָכָא בְּמַאי עָסְקִינַן, דְּשַׁוִּיתֵיהּ שָׁלִיחַ, מַהוּ דְּתֵימָא: כִּי מְקַבֵּל קִידּוּשֵׁי אַדַּעְתָּא דִידַהּ קָא מְקַבֵּל, קָא מַשְׁמַע לַן: לָא שָׁבֵיק אִינִישׁ מִידֵּי דְּאִית לֵיהּ הֲנָאָה מִינֵּיהּ, וְעָבֵיד מִידֵּי דְּלֵית לֵיהּ הֲנָאָה מִינֵּיהּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks a different question: This *halakha* **is obvious,** as **what are grown women doing** in this context, i.e., how could it be suggested that a father could betroth to a man his daughter who is a grown woman? His authority extends only to his minor daughters. The Gemara answers: **Here we are dealing with** a case **where** the adult daughter **appointed** her father as her **agent** to accept her betrothal, and he proceeds to betroth one of his daughters without specifying which one. **Lest you say** with regard to this situation that **when** he **accepts** the **betrothal he accepts** it **with** his adult daughter **in mind,** as he is her agent, the mishna **teaches us** that **a person does not put aside a matter from which he derives benefit,** i.e., the betrothal of his minor daughter, where he keeps the money, **and perform a matter from which he does not derive benefit,** i.e., the betrothal of his adult daughter, where she keeps the money.


###### Kiddushin 64b:9
[Kiddushin 64b:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:9)

מִי לָא עָסְקִינַן דְּאָמְרָה לֵיהּ: ״קִדּוּשַׁיי לָךְ״? אֲפִילּוּ הָכִי, לָא שָׁבֵיק אִינִישׁ מִצְוָה דְּרַמְיָא עֲלֵיהּ וְעָבֵיד מִצְוָה דְּלָא רַמְיָא עֲלֵיהּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara rejects this suggestion: **Are we not dealing** even with a case **where** the daughter **says to him:** As reward for fulfilling your agency, **my betrothal** money shall belong **to you?** This would mean that the father derives benefit from the betrothal of his adult daughter as well. The Gemara counters: **Even so, a person does not put aside a mitzva that is imposed upon him,** i.e., the betrothal of his minor daughter, **to perform a mitzva that is not** directly **imposed upon him,** the betrothal of his adult daughter. Since she is of age, her betrothal is her own responsibility.


###### Kiddushin 64b:10
[Kiddushin 64b:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:10)

מִי שֶׁיֵּשׁ לוֹ שְׁתֵּי כִּיתֵּי בָנוֹת. וּצְרִיכָא, דְּאִי אַשְׁמְעִינַן קַמַּיְיתָא, בְּהָךְ קָאָמַר רַבִּי מֵאִיר דְּכֵיוָן דְּאִיכָּא זוּטְרָא מִינַּהּ לְהָךְ גְּדוֹלָה קָרֵי לַהּ,

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ The mishna taught: With regard to **one who has two groups of daughters** and betrothed the elder of them, but was unsure which one he meant, Rabbi Meir and Rabbi Yosei dispute which of them is betrothed. The mishna adds that the same dispute applies if he betrothed his younger daughter. The Gemara comments: **And** it is **necessary** to state this *halakha* in both cases, **as had** the mishna **taught us** only that the *tanna’im* disagree with regard to the **first** case, one might have claimed that **in this** case **Rabbi Meir says** that they are all prohibited except for the youngest daughter of the younger group. The reason is **that since there is one younger than her,** he **calls any** daughter who is not the youngest: **Elder.**


###### Kiddushin 64b:11
[Kiddushin 64b:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:11)

אֲבָל בְּהָא, אֵימָא מוֹדֵי לֵיהּ לְרַבִּי יוֹסֵי דִּ״קְטַנָּה״ – לְהָךְ קְטַנָּה דְּכוּלְּהוּ קָרֵי לַהּ. וְאִי אִיתְּמַר בְּהָא, בְּהָא קָאָמַר רַבִּי יוֹסֵי, אֲבָל בְּהָךְ, אֵימָא מוֹדֵי לֵיהּ לְרַבִּי מֵאִיר, צְרִיכָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**But in this** case of one who betroths his younger daughter, **say** that **he concedes to Rabbi Yosei** that a father **calls** only **that** one who is the **youngest of all: Younger,** as a father prefers to call his daughters: Elder, whenever possible. **And** conversely, **if** the *halakha* **was stated** only **with regard to this** case, that of a younger daughter, one might have said that **Rabbi Yosei says** his opinion only in **this** case, for the above reason. **But in that** case of an elder daughter, you might **say** that **he concedes to Rabbi Meir.** Consequently, it is **necessary** for the mishna to specify both cases.


###### Kiddushin 64b:12
[Kiddushin 64b:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:12)

לְמֵימְרָא דְּרַבִּי מֵאִיר סָבַר: מַחֵית אִינִישׁ נַפְשֵׁיהּ לִסְפֵיקָא, וְרַבִּי יוֹסֵי סָבַר: לָא מַחֵית אִינִישׁ לִסְפֵיקָא. וְהָאִיפְכָּא שָׁמְעִינַן לְהוּ, דִּתְנַן: הַנּוֹדֵר ״עַד הַפֶּסַח״ – אָסוּר עַד שֶׁיַּגִּיעַ, ״עַד שֶׁיְּהֵא פֶּסַח״ – אָסוּר עַד שֶׁיֵּצֵא,

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks a question with regard to these opinions: **Is this to say that Rabbi Meir maintains: A person places himself in** a situation of **uncertainty,** i.e., people issue statements and accept upon themselves obligations that are not clearly defined, **and Rabbi Yosei maintains** that **a person does not place himself in** a situation of **uncertainty,** as one has only well-defined situations in mind? **But haven’t we learned** that these two *tanna’im* state **the opposite** opinions, **as we learned** in a mishna (*Nedarim* 60a): If **one takes a vow** that wine is forbidden to him **until Passover, it is forbidden** to him **until** Passover **arrives.** If he said: **Until it will be** Passover, **it is forbidden** to him **until** Passover **ends.**


###### Kiddushin 64b:13
[Kiddushin 64b:13](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:13)

״עַד פְּנֵי פֶסַח״ – רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר: אָסוּר עַד שֶׁיַּגִּיעַ, רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר: עַד שֶׁיֵּצֵא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The mishna continues: If he said: **Until before Passover, Rabbi Meir says:** It is **forbidden** to him **until** Passover **arrives. Rabbi Yosei says:** It is forbidden to him **until it ends.** This indicates that Rabbi Meir holds that one does not put himself into a situation of uncertainty, as despite his mention of the presence of Passover, which might be referring to any of the days of the Festival, he does not mean one of the days of Passover itself but until the arrival of the Festival, whereas Rabbi Yosei claims that his words apply to each of the days of Passover, due to uncertainty. This is the opposite of the above interpretation of the mishna concerning a man who betroths his daughter.


###### Kiddushin 64b:14
[Kiddushin 64b:14](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:14)

אָמַר רַבִּי חֲנִינָא בַּר אַבְדִּימִי אָמַר רַב: מוּחְלֶפֶת הַשִּׁיטָה. וְהָתַנְיָא: זֶה הַכְּלָל: כֹּל שֶׁזְּמַנּוֹ קָבוּעַ, וְאָמַר: ״עַד פְּנֵי״ – רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר: עַד שֶׁיָּצָא, רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר: עַד שֶׁיַּגִּיעַ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rabbi Ḥanina bar Avdimi says** that **Rav says: The** attribution of the **opinions is reversed,** i.e., the rulings of the respective *tanna’im* in that mishna in *Nedarim* must be switched so that they accord with the mishna here. **And it is taught** likewise in a *baraita* that **this is the principle:** With regard to **any** vow **that has a fixed time,** i.e., it applies until a set date, **and one said: Until before** that date, **Rabbi Meir says** that the vow lasts **until** that date **ends; Rabbi Yosei says: Until it arrives.** The opinions in this *baraita* are in accordance with the suggested emendation.


###### Kiddushin 64b:15
[Kiddushin 64b:15](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:15)

אָמַר אַבָּיֵי: מַחֲלוֹקֶת בִּשְׁתֵּי כִּיתֵּי בָנוֹת, אֲבָל בְּכַת אַחַת – דִּבְרֵי הַכֹּל גְּדוֹלָה מַמָּשׁ, קְטַנָּה מַמָּשׁ, אֶמְצָעִית בִּשְׁמָהּ קָרֵי לַהּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Abaye said:** This **dispute** between Rabbi Meir and Rabbi Yosei applies **to two groups of girls,** as Rabbi Meir maintains that all of them can be called: Elder, except for the youngest of the younger group. **But with regard to one group,** i.e., if all the daughters share the same mother, **everyone agrees** that when the father says: Elder, he means the **actual eldest** one, and when he says: Younger, he means the **actual youngest** daughter. As for the **middle** daughter, she is called neither elder nor younger; rather, **he calls her by her name.**


###### Kiddushin 64b:16
[Kiddushin 64b:16](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Kiddushin/r/64b:16)

אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב אַדָּא בַּר מַתְנָה לְאַבָּיֵי: אֶלָּא מֵעַתָּה,

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rav Adda bar Mattana said to Abaye: If that is so,**