## Magen Avraham Siman 124

###### Magen Avraham 124:1
[Magen Avraham 124:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:1)

**שאינו יודע**. אבל הבקי אינו יוצא בתפל' ש"ץ:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
(the Shulchan Aruch said "the repetition is for one who doesn't know how to daven" implying) but if one is an expert (he knows how to daven) he does not fulfill his obligation through listenening to the chazan.


###### Magen Avraham 124:2
[Magen Avraham 124:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:2)

**יכוין**. וצריך שיבין בל' הקדש כמ"ש סי' קצ"ג ע"ש [ב"י ב"ח ד"מ] עמ"ש סי' ס"ב:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
One must understand lashon hakodesh (the hebrew of shemona esrie to fulfill his obligation with the chazan) like it says in siman 193 see there (says by someone fulfilling his obligation of benching through hearing someone else that he must understand the hebrew AND he must follow along with the person for ever word [Beis Yosef, Bach, Darchie Moshe]. See what I say in siman 62 (there he says an individual can daven in other languages as long as he understands that language).


###### Magen Avraham 124:3
[Magen Avraham 124:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:3)

**בקול רם**. ואין בזה משום קטני אמנה או משמיע קולו בתפלתו כיון דע"י הדחק הוא עושה כן (כל בו): בגמרא סוף ר"ה משמע דאף בלא דחק שרי דאמרי' לדבריך למה הצבור מתפללין א"ל כדי להסדיר ש"ץ תפלתו משמע דאי לאו משום להסדיר הוי רשאי הש"ץ להתפלל מיד בקול רם ומיהו א"צ לסדר אלא בר"ה וי"ה כמ"ש סי' ק' ע"ש ומ"מ צ"ע לר"ג למה צבור מתפללין כל השנה וצ"ל דמ"מ טוב להסדיר ש"ץ בכל פעם כמ"ש סי' קל"ט וכב"י ועכשיו נהגו ברוב המקומות להתפלל ש"ץ מנחה בקו"ר תיכף ע"כ, ובמדינות אלו לא נהגו כן וכן נכון וכ"כ ר"ל חביב בתשוב' וכ"כ רדב"ז סי' צ"ד שאם אפשר לבטלו שלא ע"י מחלוקת יבטלם ובכ"ה כ' סימן ק"א שמנהגם שש"ץ אומר ג' ראשונות וג' אחרונות בקול רם והשאר בלחש ע"ש:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
This is not a problem of lacking faith (looks like Hashem doesn't hear you so have to daven louder) and also not a problem of having your voice be heard during davening (Machatzit Hashekel says the correct text should be "there's no issue of lacking faith through having your voice be heard...") because your only doing it loudly since forced to (because chazan entered late) (kol bo). The Gemara at the end of Rosh Hashana implies that even if not forced, the chazan may daven the repetition immediately. The Gemara there says (there's an argument between Raban Gamliel and the Chachamim whether an individual who knows how to daven can fulfill his obligation through the chazans repetition of shemona esrie. Raban Gamliel holds everyone can fulfill there obligation through the chazan. The chachamim hold only people who don't know how to daven can. The Chachamim ask on Raban Gamliel...) according to you why does the congregation daven (everyone fulfills there obligation with him)? He answers "they all daven before his repetition to give him time to prepare." From his response it's implied that there would be no issue of the chazan davening immediately, he just needs time to prepare so can't! And only on Rosh Hashana and Yom kippur would the chazan need time to prepare, he wouldn't have to prepare for a regular weekday shemona esrie like it says in siman 100 (only for prayers said periodically do you need to prepare)! Now, it needs to be well thought through why according to Rabban Gamliel the chazan doesn't say the repetition immediately on weekday (doesn't need to prepare)? Your forced to answer that (even though he knows the tefillah) it's still better to prepare like it says in siman 139 ("the reader of the Torah portion has to prepare the reading" and doesn't make distinctions if he knows it). (So now comes out the chazan should only read immediately if forced to like in Shulchan Aruchs case otherwise he needs to prepare like we see from Raban Gamliel not allowing him to daven right away). The Beis Yosef writes that "now the custom in a lot of places is for the chazan to start the repetition immediately at mincha (doesn't wait for the congregation to daven quietly)." In these places the custom is not so (they first do the quite shemona esrie before the repetition), and this is the proper thing to do. The Ral Chaviv writes this way as well in his respona and the Radvaz as well in siman 94 [fourth chelek siman 1165] that if it's possible to stop people from doing this (just having chazan daven immediately) without disputes, one should stop it. The Kenneset Hagedolah writes in siman 101 that there custom was for the chazan to say the first three and last three berachot (of shemona esrie) out loud and the rest quietly , see there.


###### Magen Avraham 124:4
[Magen Avraham 124:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:4)

**שיעבור**. פי' שלא יוכלו לגמור כל י"ח ברכות תוך זמן תפלה (ל"ח) וכ"כ סי' רל"ב סס"א:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
4.The explanation of this phrase is that you won't finish all 18 berachot of shemoneh eshrei within the time your allowed to daven in (Lechem Chamudot). And he (the Rama) also writes this in siman 232 at the end of sif 1 (if not enough time chazan should begin repetition immediately).


###### Magen Avraham 124:5
[Magen Avraham 124:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:5)

**וטוב שיהיה**. היינו בדאיכא שהות ביום:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
This is where there is time during the day (for the person who will answer amen to the chazan to daven afterwards. If there isn't then having someone say amen is not required since the chazan never davened).


###### Magen Avraham 124:6
[Magen Avraham 124:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:6)

**אחר ברכת הש"ץ**. כ' הע"ת דפליג אסעיף ד' ולא דק דהכא הש"ץ מתפלל פעם א':

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
6. The Olas Tamid writes that this is arguing on seif 4 (where Shulchan Aruch says "it's close to being a beracha in vain if don't have 9 people listening to chazan.") However he (the Olas Tamid) was not careful because here were talking about when the chazan is davening for the first time (so even if people aren't listening he needs to say it for himself).


###### Magen Avraham 124:7
[Magen Avraham 124:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:7)

**אין לש"ץ להמתין**. ועכשיו נהגו להמתין על האב"ד, ונ"ל הטעם שרוב האנשים מתפללין במרוצה ואם יחידים מתפללים מלה במלה לא יוכלו לומר קדושה עם הצבור לכן ממתינים ולכן נ"ל דאף אם אין אב"ד בעיר יש להמתין על המתפלל מלה במלה אבל כשמאריך אין להמתין עליו כמ"ש על ר"ע כשהיה מתפלל עם הצבור היה מקצר ועולה, וכתוב בס"ח סימן תשפ"ד שאם אחד צריך להאריך וירא שיתלוצצו עליו יכול לילך לאחוריו בשעה שמתחיל החזן אף על פי שעדיין לא גמר תפלתו ויחזור למקומו ויגמור:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
Now the custom is to wait for the person on the head of the Beis Din. I think that the reason for this (Rama said not to wait!) is because a lot of people daven quickly and now individuals davening every word aren't going to be able to say kidusha with the congregation, therefore we wait (so they can say kedusha). Therefore I think if theres no one on the head of the Beis Din in the city one should wait for someone who davens every word but we don't need to wait for someone davening a lengthy tefillah. Like the Gemara relates regarding Rabbi Akiva that he would shorten his Shemona esrie when davening in a congregation (so if someone we'd wait for is being lengthy he's acting improperly and therefore don't have to wait). It says in the Sefer Chasidim in siman 784 that if one needs to be lengthy and he's scared of people mocking him, he may take three steps back when the chazan begins (his repetition) even though he didn't finish davening yet. After taking these steps back (to trick other people) he should return to his place and finish shemona esrie.


###### Magen Avraham 124:8
[Magen Avraham 124:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:8)

**יש להם לשתוק**. עיין בתשו' מ"ע על האנשים שלומדי' בעת חזרת הש"ץ התפלה או אומרים תחנונים אם מכוונים לסוף הברכה לענות אמן כראוי אין למחות בידם אבל בס' ווי העמודים קרא תגר עליהם וכ"מ ממ"ש סי' צ' סי"ח:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
8. See the responsa of the Migdal Oz who says people who learn or say supplications during the chazans repetition of shemona esrie and concentrate at the end of every beracha to respond amen properly (knowing what beracha there amen is going on) one should not stop them from this. However in the sefer vai ha'amudim he calls a protest on these people and this is also implied from what it says in siman 90 sief 18 (the Rama quotes the Rosh's responsa that "even if it would be permitted for someone who learns a lot to not have to go to minyan he should because people who aren't learned will learn from him." So to here even if permitted shouldn't do so people don't come to think that it's not important and not listen).


###### Magen Avraham 124:9
[Magen Avraham 124:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:9)

**על כל ברכה**. ופשוט דאם עסוק במקום שאינו רשאי להפסיק אסור לאומרו עמ"ש סי' נ"ו:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
9.Its obvious that if one is in a place where he cannot interrupt that he may not interrupt to say amen, see siman 56 (deals with what places and for who one may interrupt for).


###### Magen Avraham 124:10
[Magen Avraham 124:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:10)

**אמת הוא**. וזהו בברכת הודאה כגון ברוך שאמר וישתבח וגאל ישראל אבל בתפילה צריך שיכוון אמת היא ואני מתפלל שיאמנו דבריו ובקדיש צריך לכוון על העתיד לבא שיאמנו דבריו ב"ח בשם מהרר"ה בפירוש הסידור (ועמ"ש בשל"ה):

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
10.This is (the intent one should have) by berachot of gratitude like baruch sheamar, yishtabach and ga'al Yisroel but when hearing the berachot of shemonah esrie one should have intent (when saying amen) that the beracha is true (for example if responding to chonen hadaat think "Hashem is the one who gives knowledge") and I pray for his prayer to be accepted (for example in previous beracha that Hashem grants us knowledge). When responding to kadish one should intend that the future he's referring to should come about. This explanation (of amen) is from the Bach from the Maharra on his commentary on the siddur (see the Shelah).


###### Magen Avraham 124:11
[Magen Avraham 124:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:11)

**בניו הקטנים**. וצריך שיחנכם שיעמדו באימה וביראה ואותן שרצים ושבים בבית הכנסת בשחוק מוטב שלא להביאם (שני לוחות הברית):

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
11. One needs to train them to stand with a reverence and fear. Those children who run and sit in the shul laughing, it's better not to bring them (Shelah).


###### Magen Avraham 124:12
[Magen Avraham 124:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:12)

**בחטף**. פי' בחטף שב"א (ב"ח):

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
12. Chataf is a shevah (Bach).


###### Magen Avraham 124:13
[Magen Avraham 124:13](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:13)

**אינו מחויב**. וב"ח כ' להחמיר אפי' אינו מחויב אפי' יודע אם הברכה היא להוציא רבים ידי חובתם ולא שרי ביודע אלא א"כ בברכת התורה ובברכת הנהנין:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
13. The Bach is stringent that if can't hear the beracha even if your not obligated to say that beracha and you know what beracha is being made (each of these reasons is enough according to some opinions), you may not respond amen if that beracha is because of the congregation (like repetition of tefillah). It's only permitted when didn't hear a beracha to say amen if know which one by birchas hatorah and berachot on pleasures (nothing to do with me).


###### Magen Avraham 124:14
[Magen Avraham 124:14](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:14)

**מיד כשכלה**. ואם החזן מאריך בנגון של ואמרו אמן יאמרו אמן מיד כי הניגון הוי הפסק (יש נוחלין) ועמ"ש ס"ס קכ"ח דהארכת הנגון מכלל הברכה היא ומ"מ נ"ל דאם מאריך הרבה הוי הפסק:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
14. If the Chazan is being lengthy in singing "viimru amen" then you should say amen immediately because the song is an interruption (Yesh Nochlin). See what I say at the end of siman 128 that the lengthening of a beracha through a song is considered part of the beracha (he brings the Terumas Hadeshen who says one can say the tefillah for bad dreams when the cohanim are singing even though chazal say to say it at bircat cohanim. Since there singing it is still considered like there making the beracha). Nevertheless I think that if he is to lengthy it's an interruption (and should answer amen before he's done).


###### Magen Avraham 124:15
[Magen Avraham 124:15](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:15)

**א"צ המברך**. נ"ל דוקא בברכה שאינה חובה לשמוע אבל בברכה שמוציא רבים י"ח צריך להמתין כמ"ש סימן קכ"ח סי"ח:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
15. I think that this is only true by a beracha they don't have to hear but if there fulfilling there obligation through your beracha you need to wait (even if there being lengthy in there amen more than there supposed to). Like I say in siman 128 sief 18 (that the cohanim have to wait until the whole congregation finished saying amen because they have to hear them making the beracha).


###### Magen Avraham 124:16
[Magen Avraham 124:16](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:16)

**יכוין**. ואין אדם יכול לכוין לכן יחזור ויתפלל (ב"ח רש"ל) עס"ס קפ"ג:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
16. And since a person cannot concentrate the entire time he should repeat shemona esrie (Bach and Rav Shlomo Luria). See end of siman 183 (Shulchan Aruch says "should bench by yourself and not just fulfill your obligation through someone else")


###### Magen Avraham 124:17
[Magen Avraham 124:17](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:17)

**שומע צבור**. לכאור' משמע שכיוון למ"ש ב"י בשם א"ח וכן נרשם המ"מ ול"נ דליתא שהא"ח כונתו לתרץ תי' אחר על קושית הפוסקים מההי' דהחליל ולחלק בין צבור ליחיד אבל רמ"א סתם בס"ח כשאר הפוסקים דאין חילוק והא דנקט כאן צבור משום דעלה קאי:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
17. It appears that the Rama is ruling like the Orchot Chaim brough by the Beis Yosef and Magid Mishna (he says don't answer if heard a reponse to an individuals beracha. So that's why Rama said if you heard "the congregation responding" and not an individual). However I think that this is not the intention of the Rama. Because the Orchot Chiam was coming to resolve the question from perek hachalil (mesechta succah where it sounds like could respond even if didn't hear the beracha unlike in mesechta berachot where sounds like only respond if heard the beracha). He answers the question by differentiating between responding amen after hearing a congregation respond vs responding after hearing an individual responding amen (have to be worried that individual also didn't hear the beracha). But the Rama, like the other poskim, doesn't mention this distinction in siman 8 implying it doesn't make a difference. So the reason he said can respond amen when hear the congregation (even though can respond amen even if just heard an individual say amen) is because that's the case being discussed (responding to chazans repetition when there is a congregation present)


###### Magen Avraham 124:18
[Magen Avraham 124:18](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/124:18)

**וכן בקדיש**. דלא מקרי ברכה שנתחייב בה אלא דבר שמחוייב לאומרו ביחיד דאם לא כן קשה האיך יצאו באלכסנדריא בקדיש וברכו:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
18. (Magen Avraham is bothered that in siman 8 we said can't respond when didn't hear if your obligated and aren't you obligated to respond to kadish and barichu?) It's not called a beracha that one is obligated in unless it's a beracha an individual must say (when by himself). If you don't say this distinction it would be difficult to explain how the people in Alexandria fulfilled there obligation of kadish and barichu (Gemara relates there were so many people that some people couldn't hear. It must be since kadish and barichu are not an obligation when one is alone, they could respond even though they didn't hear the chazan say it).