## Magen Avraham Siman 125

###### Magen Avraham 125:1
[Magen Avraham 125:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/125:1)

**שותקין**. וגם קדיש א"ל עם החזן כי א"א דבר שבקדושה אלא בי' וצריך להבין לחזן ולענות אחריו (ב"י רא"ש) וכ' בהגה' י"ל אפי' יש מנין מלבדו אסור ואפי' ללמוד אם לא בשעה שהחזן מנגן בשעת הנגון ולא בשעה שמחתך האותיות. ואינו נק' קדושה אלא נעריצך וכו' לעומתם וכו' ובדברי וכו' אבל שאר הנוסח שמוסיפין בשבת אינו בכלל קדושה ע"כ, ועמ"ש סי' ס"ג, בשבת אומרים כדבר האמור בקמ"ץ (ס"ח סי' תת"ה) ויראה הש"ץ לסיים לעומתם וכו' ובדברי וכו' קודם שיתחילו הקהל ברוך וימלוך [ס"ח סי' תת"ו]: מהרי"ל כשאמר ברוך וימלוך היה כורע וזוקף בשם וקשה היאך השתחוה במקום שלא אמרו חכמים עסי' קי"ג (ע"ה) ול"נ דדוקא כשאומר ברוך אתה ה' או מודים אסור לשחות דה"ל כמוסיף על תקנ' חכמי' ובכל קומה לפניך תשתחוה אסור דהוי שבח והודאה אבל בעלמא מותר דהא באמצע הברכה מותר לשחות, ואני קבלתי שירים גופו ועקבו למעלה בברוך וימלוך כמו בקדוש (של"ה):

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
Also by kadish one shouldn't say it along with the chazan because a "holy matter" is only said with 10 people [Gemara says "a holy matter needs 10 people." The Magen Avraham is understanding this to mean that there needs to be 9 people listening and one saying it. The basis for this understanding is because chazal definitely had these matters need a chazan (can't just say kadish once 10 people present), so only considered a chazan (i.e. shiliach tzibur: someone davening for the congregation) if saying it for them (which you wouldn't be doing if there saying it for themselves)]. One needs to understand what the chazan is saying and respond after him (Beis Yosef). The Rama writes "even if there's 10 people without you, you may not (say kedusha). You may not even learn unless the chazan is singing but can't (learn) when he's annunciating the words. The term "kedusha" is only reffering to na'aritzach etc., li'umatam etc., and "uvdivrie etc." but the parts we add on shabbot by mussaf is not called kedusha (the difference to whether it's called part of kedusha seems to be in whether the individual can say it)." See siman 66 (halachot of interrupting ones davening when congregation gets to kedusha). On Shabbot they should say "kadavar ha'amor" with a kamatz (Sefer Chasidim siman 805). It appears that the chazan should finish "liumatam etc. and "uvdivrie etc." before the congregation responds "baruch (kivod Hashem mimikomo)" and "Yimloch (Hashem liolam...)." [Sefer Chasidim siman 806]: When the Mahril said "baruch" and "yimloch" (in kedusha) he would bow and then straighten himself when he got to Hashems name (like we do by the beracha magen avraham in shemona esrie). This is custom is troublesome because how could he bow in a place the Rabbis didn't say to bow see siman 113 (where Shulchan Aruch in sief 1 says can't bow where the Rabbis didn't make you)? I think the answer is that only when say "baruch ata Hashem" or "modim" is one prohibited from bowing (if Rabbis didn't say to bow there) because it would look like one is adding on to what the Rabbis required. To say "and all the upright will bow before you" is also prohibited (as Shulchan Aruch previously said) because its a praise and gratitude. Generally however it is permitted (to bow where the Rabbis didn't say to bow) and this is evident from being allowed to bow in the middle of a beracha [in siman 113 only prohibited bowing at end of beracha. Must be only prohibited from bowing at places similar to what Rabbis say because it appears like your adding on to the requirement). I have a tradition that one should raise his body and heels upwards at "baruch (kivod Hashem...)" and "Yimloch (Hashem liolam...)" just like he does by kadosh (Shelah).


###### Magen Avraham 125:2
[Magen Avraham 125:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/125:2)

**מנענעים גופן**. בתנחומא פ' צו ובשתים יעופף מכאן תקנו לעוף על רגליו בשעה שאומר קדוש [בד"ה] ולא כאותם שדולגים וקופצים, ובכתבים איתא בשעת קדושה יפסע ג' פסיעות לפניו וישאר שם עד נפילת אפים ויאמר נקדישך ונעריצך וקק"ק בקול רם והשאר יאמר בלחש מלה במלה עם הש"ץ ע"כ: כב"ח שצ"ל וכן כתוב על יד כו' ונוסח' שלנו ככתוב על יד וכו' ונהרא נהרא ופשטי' ונוסח שלנו יש לה סמך מחזקוני פרשת האזינו שצ"ל כ"א תיבות קודם שיזכיר השם כמו שעשה משה בפ' האזינו וע"ש בילקוט ובתוס' סנהדרין:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
In the Midrash Tanchuma Parashat Tzav it says and with two they would fly. Based on this it was decreed to "fly on ones feet" (go on tepee toes) when there he says kadosh [BD"H]. This is against those people who skip and jump (just go on toes). In the kesavim it's brought that "when the chazan reaches kedusha one should take three steps forwards and remain there until tachanun. During kedusha he should say "nakdishach vina'aritzach" and "kadosh kadosh kadosh" in a loud voice and the rest of kedusha he should say quietly word by word with the chazan": The Bach says the correct text (in the Tur) is "vichan katuv al yad etc." However our version is "kacatuv al yad etc." (difference is if "as it is written" is written as two words or one word). Every river has its own course (a Talmudic expression which means different places do different things). Our version does have support from the Chizkuni in parashat ha'azinu (32:3). He says "one needs to say 21 words before he mentions Hashems name just like Moshe did in Parashat Ha'azinu [doesn't say Hashems name until verse 3 which is 21 words from the beginning of the Parasha. Sifri says "Moshe waited a bit before saying Hashems name because the angels don't say until they say three words (kadosh kadosh kadosh) so he thought he should wait the amount of words 7 angels would wait (7 x 3= 21)." Based on this the Rabbis had us also wait until we say 21 words.]" (according to Bach's version it would not be 21 words). Also see the Yalkut and Tosafot in Mesechta Sanhedrin.


###### Magen Avraham 125:3
[Magen Avraham 125:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Magen%20Avraham/r/125:3)

**טוב כו'**. והאר"י היה מזהיר מאד ע"ז:

**Hadar Egalitarianism Tshuva:**
The Arizal was very careful about this (to have his feet together for kedusha).