## Menachot Daf 80a

###### Menachot 80a:1
[Menachot 80a:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:1)

אֶלָּא אַחֲלִיפֵי תּוֹדָה נְדָבָה, בֵּין לִפְנֵי כַפָּרָה בֵּין לְאַחַר כַּפָּרָה טְעוּנוֹת לֶחֶם – מַרְבֶּה בְּתוֹדוֹת הוּא!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rather,** perhaps Rabbi Yoḥanan was referring not to the replacement for an obligatory thanks offering, but **to the replacement for a voluntary thanks offering.** This too is difficult, because **whether** the initial thanks offering was found **before** the owner achieved **atonement** with the replacement **or after** he achieved **atonement,** both offerings **require loaves,** as the owner **is** considered one who **increases thanks offerings.** That is, since he was not required to bring a replacement for the offering, if he brings another offering it is considered an additional voluntary offering, and a voluntary thanks offering requires loaves.


###### Menachot 80a:2
[Menachot 80a:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:2)

אֶלָּא, אַוְּלַד תּוֹדָה נְדָבָה – בֵּין לִפְנֵי כַפָּרָה בֵּין לְאַחַר כַּפָּרָה אֵין טְעוּנִין לֶחֶם, מוֹתַר דְּתוֹדָה הִיא! אֶלָּא, אַוְּלַד תּוֹדָה חוֹבָה – לִפְנֵי כַפָּרָה טָעוּן לֶחֶם, לְאַחַר כַּפָּרָה אֵין טָעוּן לֶחֶם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rather,** perhaps Rabbi Yoḥanan was referring **to the offspring of a voluntary thanks offering.** This too is difficult, because **whether** the offspring was sacrificed **before** the owner achieved **atonement** with its mother **or after** he achieved **atonement,** offspring **do not require loaves,** as **this is** considered **a leftover of the thanks offering,** which does not require loaves. **Rather,** perhaps Rabbi Yoḥanan was referring **to the offspring of an obligatory thanks offering.** Rabbi Yoḥanan teaches that if the offspring was sacrificed **before** the owner achieved **atonement, it requires loaves,** but if it was sacrificed **after** he achieved **atonement, it does not require loaves.**


###### Menachot 80a:3
[Menachot 80a:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:3)

מַאי קָא מַשְׁמַע לַן, דְּקָסָבַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: אָדָם מִתְכַּפֵּר בִּשְׁבַח הֶקְדֵּשׁ. הָוֵי בַּהּ נָמֵי אַבָּיֵי כִּי הַאי גַוְונָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: According to this explanation, **what is** Rav Ḥanina **teaching us** by sending this letter? He teaches us **that Rabbi Yoḥanan holds: A person achieves atonement with the enhancement of consecrated** property, even though it is not the initial consecrated property. If one sacrifices the offspring of an obligatory thanks-offering before the thanks-offering itself, he achieves atonement with the offspring, even though it is an enhancement of the consecrated thanks-offering. Accordingly, if he offers it before its mother, it requires loaves. The Gemara notes: **Abaye also discusses** the letter sent by Rav Ḥanina **in this way** and reaches conclusions similar to those of Rav Amram.


###### Menachot 80a:4
[Menachot 80a:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:4)

אִיתְּמַר נָמֵי, אָמַר רַב יִצְחָק בַּר יוֹסֵף, אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: חִילּוּפֵי תוֹדָה נְדָבָה, בֵּין לִפְנֵי כַפָּרָה בֵּין לְאַחַר כַּפָּרָה – טְעוּנָה לֶחֶם, מַרְבֶּה בְּתוֹדוֹת הוּא. וְלַד תּוֹדָה נְדָבָה, בֵּין לִפְנֵי כַפָּרָה בֵּין לְאַחַר כַּפָּרָה – אֵין טָעוּן לֶחֶם, מוֹתַר דְּתוֹדָה הוּא. וְולַד תּוֹדָה חוֹבָה, לִפְנֵי כַפָּרָה – טְעוּנִין לֶחֶם, לְאַחַר כַּפָּרָה – אֵין טְעוּנִין לֶחֶם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
With regard to the conclusions of Rav Amram and Abaye, it **was also stated: Rav Yitzḥak bar Yosef says** that **Rabbi Yoḥanan says:** If one achieves atonement with **the replacement for a voluntary thanks offering, whether** the thanks offering was found **before** he achieved **atonement or after** he achieved **atonement,** the replacement **requires loaves,** as the owner **is** considered one who **increases thanks offerings. The offspring of a voluntary thanks offering, whether** it was sacrificed **before** he achieved **atonement or after** he achieved **atonement, does not require loaves,** as offspring **is** considered **a leftover of the thanks offering. And** with regard to **the offspring of an obligatory thanks offering,** if it was sacrificed **before** he achieved **atonement, it requires loaves,** but if it was sacrificed **after** he achieved **atonement, it does not require loaves.**


###### Menachot 80a:5
[Menachot 80a:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:5)

אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: כֹּל שֶׁבְּחַטָּאת מֵתָה – בְּתוֹדָה אֵין טְעוּנָה לֶחֶם, כֹּל שֶׁבְּחַטָּאת רוֹעָה – בַּתּוֹדָה טְעוּנָה לֶחֶם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ The Gemara cites additional *halakhot* with regard to the loaves of a thanks offering that was lost and another animal was taken as its replacement: **Shmuel says:** In **any** situation **in which a sin offering** would be placed in isolation for it **to die,** if that same situation occurs **with a thanks offering, it does not require loaves.** And in **any** situation **in which a sin offering** would be placed in the field to **graze** until it develops a blemish, if that same situation occurs **with a thanks offering, it requires loaves.**


###### Menachot 80a:6
[Menachot 80a:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:6)

מֵתִיב רַב עַמְרָם: מַהוּ אוֹמֵר ״הַתּוֹדָה יַקְרִיב״? מִנַּיִן לְמַפְרִישׁ תּוֹדָתוֹ וְאָבְדָה, וְהִפְרִישׁ אַחֶרֶת תַּחְתֶּיהָ, וְנִמְצֵאת הָרִאשׁוֹנָה, וַהֲרֵי שְׁתֵּיהֶן עוֹמְדוֹת – מִנַּיִן שֶׁאֵיזוֹ מֵהֶן שֶׁיִּרְצֶה יַקְרִיב וְלַחְמָהּ עִמָּהּ? תַּלְמוּד לוֹמַר ״הַתּוֹדָה יַקְרִיב״. יָכוֹל תְּהֵא שְׁנִיָּה טְעוּנָה לֶחֶם? תַּלְמוּד לוֹמַר ״יַקְרִיבֶנּוּ״ – אֶחָד וְלֹא שְׁנַיִם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rav Amram raises an objection** from the *baraita* cited on 79b: **What is it** that the verse teaches when it **states: He sacrifices for a thanks offering? From where** is it derived that **one who separated** an animal as **his thanks offering and it was lost and he separated another in its stead, and the first animal was** then **found, and** now **they both stand** fit to be sacrificed, **from where** is it derived **that he may sacrifice whichever** one **of them he wishes, and its loaves** are brought along **with it? The verse states: He sacrifices for a thanks offering.** One **might** have thought **that the second** animal also **requires loaves** to be brought with it. **The verse states: “He sacrifices it,”** indicating that only **one** thanks offering requires loaves, **but not two.**


###### Menachot 80a:7
[Menachot 80a:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:7)

וְאִילּוּ גַּבֵּי חַטָּאת כִּי הַאי גַּוְנָא רוֹעָה, דִּתְנַן: הִפְרִישׁ חַטָּאתוֹ וְאָבְדָה, וְהִפְרִישׁ אַחֶרֶת תַּחְתֶּיהָ, וְנִמְצֵאת הָרִאשׁוֹנָה, וַהֲרֵי שְׁתֵּיהֶן עוֹמְדוֹת – מִתְכַּפֵּר בְּאַחַת מֵהֶן וּשְׁנִיָּה תָּמוּת, דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי. וַחֲכָמִים אוֹמְרִים: אֵין חַטָּאת מֵתָה אֶלָּא שֶׁנִּמְצֵאת לְאַחַר שֶׁנִּתְכַּפְּרוּ בְּעָלִים, הָא קוֹדֶם שֶׁנִּתְכַּפְּרוּ בְּעָלִים – רוֹעָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Amram continues: **Whereas with regard to a sin offering in a case like this,** the Rabbis hold that the animal **is** placed in the field to **graze, as we learned** in a mishna (*Temura* 22b): If **one separated his sin offering and it was lost, and he separated another** animal **in its stead, and the first** sin offering **was found, and both** animals **stand** fit for sacrifice, then he **achieves atonement with one of them and the second** animal **shall** be left to **die;** this is **the statement of Rabbi** Yehuda HaNasi. **And the Rabbis say: A sin offering** is left to **die only** if it **was found after its owner achieved atonement.** It may be inferred from the opinion of the Rabbis **that** if it is found **before the owner achieved atonement,** it is placed in the field to **graze.**


###### Menachot 80a:8
[Menachot 80a:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:8)

שְׁמוּאֵל כְּרַבִּי סְבִירָא לֵיהּ, דְּאָמַר: אֲבוּדָה בִּשְׁעַת הַפְרָשָׁה – מֵתָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara responds: **Shmuel holds in accordance with** the opinion of **Rabbi** Yehuda HaNasi, **who said:** An animal separated as a sin offering that was **lost at the time of the separation** of its replacement, even if it was found before the replacement was sacrificed, is left to **die.** The principle stated by Shmuel is therefore correct, since in every situation in which a sin offering is left to die, a thanks offering does not require loaves.


###### Menachot 80a:9
[Menachot 80a:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:9)

אֶלָּא רוֹעָה, לְרַבִּי הֵיכִי מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ? כִּדְרַבִּי אוֹשַׁעְיָא, דְּאָמַר רַבִּי אוֹשַׁעְיָא: הִפְרִישׁ שְׁתֵּי חַטָּאוֹת לְאַחְרָיוּת, מִתְכַּפֵּר בְּאֵיזֶה מֵהֶן שֶׁיִּרְצֶה, וְהַשְּׁנִיָּה תִּרְעֶה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **But** if Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi holds that even in such a case the second sin offering is left to die, **how can you find** a case where the sin offering is placed in the field to **graze according to** the opinion of **Rabbi** Yehuda HaNasi? The Gemara responds: It can be found in a case **like that of Rabbi Oshaya, as Rabbi Oshaya says:** If **one separated two sin offerings,** one to achieve atonement for his sin and the other **as a guarantee** in case the first one is lost, **he may achieve atonement with whichever of them he wishes, and the second shall** be placed in the field to **graze.**


###### Menachot 80a:10
[Menachot 80a:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:10)

וְהָא גַּבֵּי תוֹדָה כִּי הַאי גַוְונָא אֵין טְעוּנָה לֶחֶם, אֶלָּא שְׁמוּאֵל כְּרַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן סְבִירָא לֵיהּ, דְּאָמַר: חָמֵשׁ חַטָּאוֹת מֵתוֹת.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara challenges: **But in a case like this** involving **a thanks offering,** the animal **does not require loaves.** Therefore, if Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi holds that in such a case the sin offering is placed in the field to graze, then Shmuel cannot hold in accordance with his opinion, since according to Shmuel, in circumstances where a sin offering would be left to graze, a thanks offering in the same circumstances would require loaves. **Rather, Shmuel holds in accordance with** the opinion of **Rabbi Shimon, who said:** There are **five sin offerings** that are left to **die;** one is a sin offering that was lost and found before its replacement was sacrificed, and another is the case where a sin offering was separated as a guarantee.


###### Menachot 80a:11
[Menachot 80a:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:11)

וְהָא רוֹעָה, לְרַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן לֵית לֵיהּ כְּלָל.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara challenges: **But** it cannot be that Shmuel holds in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Shimon, since **Rabbi Shimon does not hold** that there are **any** circumstances in which a sin offering is placed in the field to **graze.** Accordingly, if Shmuel holds in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Shimon, how can he say: And in any situation in which a sin offering would be placed in the field to graze until it develops a blemish, if that same situation occurs with a thanks offering, it requires loaves?


###### Menachot 80a:12
[Menachot 80a:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:12)

שְׁמוּאֵל נָמֵי חֲדָא קָאָמַר: כֹּל שֶׁבְּחַטָּאת מֵתָה – בְּתוֹדָה אֵין טְעוּנָה לֶחֶם. מַאי קָא מַשְׁמַע לַן? לְאַפּוֹקֵי מִדְּרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן, דְּאָמַר: אָדָם מִתְכַּפֵּר בִּשְׁבַח הֶקְדֵּשׁ, קָמַשְׁמַע לַן דְּלָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara responds: In fact, **Shmuel also stated** only **one** principle: In **any** situation **in which a sin offering** is placed in isolation for it **to die,** if that same situation occurs **with a thanks offering, it does not require loaves.** He did not state the second principle. The Gemara asks: **What is** Shmuel **teaching us?** The Gemara responds: Shmuel teaches us his statement **to exclude** the statement **of Rabbi Yoḥanan, who said: A person achieves atonement with the enhancement of consecrated** property. According to Rabbi Yoḥanan, the offspring of an obligatory thanks offering requires loaves if it is sacrificed before its mother. Shmuel **teaches us that** one does **not** achieve atonement with the enhancement of consecrated property, and the offspring of a thanks offering does not require loaves, which corresponds to the fact that the offspring of a sin offering is left to die.


###### Menachot 80a:13
[Menachot 80a:13](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:13)

אָמַר רַבִּי אַבָּא: זוֹ תּוֹדָה וְזוֹ לַחְמָהּ, אָבַד הַלֶּחֶם – מֵבִיא לֶחֶם אַחֵר, אָבְדָה תּוֹדָה – אֵינוֹ מֵבִיא תּוֹדָה אַחֶרֶת. מַאי טַעְמָא? לֶחֶם לִגְלַל תּוֹדָה, וְאֵין תּוֹדָה לִגְלַל לֶחֶם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ With regard to the loaves of a thanks offering, **Rabbi Abba says:** If one volunteered to bring a thanks offering, and said: **This** animal **is a thanks offering and this** flour **is** designated for **its loaves,** then if **the loaves were lost, he brings other loaves.** If **the thanks offering was lost, he does not bring another thanks offering,** and the loaves are not sacrificed. **What is the reason** for this? **The loaves are** brought **on account of the thanks offering;** therefore, if there is no thanks offering, there are no loaves. **But the thanks offering is not** brought **on account of the loaves;** consequently, if the loaves were lost, the thanks offering is still sacrificed, and one brings different loaves.


###### Menachot 80a:14
[Menachot 80a:14](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/80a:14)

וְאָמַר רָבָא: הִפְרִישׁ מָעוֹת לְתוֹדָתוֹ

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ **And** with regard to the distinctions between a thanks offering and its accompanying loaves, **Rava says:** In the case of one who **separated money for his thanks offering**