## Menachot Daf 87b

###### Menachot 87b:1
[Menachot 87b:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:1)

מָחוּק שֶׁבּוֹ הָיָה מוֹדֵד לַחֲבִיתֵּי כֹּהֵן גָּדוֹל.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The one that held a tenth of an ephah when **leveled** was the vessel **with which one would measure** the flour **for** the **High Priest’s griddle-cake** offering, and then that flour would be divided into two equal parts.


###### Menachot 87b:2
[Menachot 87b:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:2)

וַחֲכָמִים אוֹמְרִים: לֹא הָיָה שָׁם אֶלָּא עִשָּׂרוֹן אֶחָד, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״וְעִשָּׂרוֹן אֶחָד לַכֶּבֶשׂ הָאֶחָד״. אִם כֵּן, מָה תַּלְמוּד לוֹמַר ״עִשָּׂרוֹן עִשָּׂרוֹן״? לְרַבּוֹת חֲצִי עִשָּׂרוֹן.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And the Rabbis** disagree with Rabbi Meir and **say: There was only one** measuring vessel that held **a tenth** of an ephah **there** in the Temple, **as it is stated: “And one tenth-part for every lamb”** (Numbers 29:4). But **if so, what** is the meaning when **the verse states: “A tenth, a tenth,** for every lamb” (Numbers 28:29)? Rabbi Meir derived from the repetition of “a tenth” that there were two measuring vessels that held a tenth of an ephah. How do the Rabbis expound that? They hold it serves **to include** another measuring vessel for dry substances, one that holds **one-half of a tenth** of an ephah.


###### Menachot 87b:3
[Menachot 87b:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:3)

וְרַבִּי מֵאִיר, חֲצִי עִשָּׂרוֹן מְנָא לֵיהּ? נָפְקָא לֵיהּ מִ״וְּעִשָּׂרוֹן״. וְרַבָּנַן, וָי״ו לָא דָּרְשִׁי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Having cited the *baraita*, the Gemara discusses each opinion: **And** as for **Rabbi Meir, from where** does **he** derive that there was a measuring vessel that held **one-half of a tenth** of an ephah? **He derives it from** the superfluous “and” in the phrase **“and one tenth-part** for every lamb.” The Gemara asks: **And** as for **the Rabbis,** why don’t they expound this from the term “and”? **They do not derive** anything from **“and.”** They hold that the addition of the word is not significant enough to be expounded.


###### Menachot 87b:4
[Menachot 87b:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:4)

וְרַבִּי מֵאִיר, הַאי ״וְעִשָּׂרוֹן אֶחָד לַכֶּבֶשׂ הָאֶחָד״ מַאי עָבֵיד לֵיהּ? הַהוּא שֶׁלֹּא יִמְדּוֹד לֹא בְּשֶׁל שְׁלֹשָׁה לַפָּר, וְלֹא בְּשֶׁל שְׁנַיִם לָאַיִל.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **And** as for **Rabbi Meir, this** verse: **“And one tenth-part for every lamb,”** from which the Rabbis derive that there was only one measuring vessel of a tenth of an ephah, **what does he do with it?** The Gemara answers: **That** verse teaches that **one should not measure** the flour by using a measuring vessel of a size that holds the entire volume of flour required, i.e., **neither with** a vessel that holds **three-**tenths of an ephah **for** the meal offering accompanying the sacrifice of **a bull, nor with** a vessel that holds **two**-tenths of an ephah **for** the meal offering accompanying the sacrifice of **a ram.** Rather, one measures the flour for them by using the tenth-ephah measuring vessel multiple times.


###### Menachot 87b:5
[Menachot 87b:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:5)

וְרַבָּנַן, נָפְקָא לְהוּ מִנְּקוּדֵּי, דְּתַנְיָא: אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹסֵי: לָמָּה נָקוּד וָי״ו שֶׁבְּאֶמְצַע ״עִשָּׂרוֹן״ שֶׁל ״עִשָּׂרוֹן״ רִאשׁוֹן שֶׁל יוֹם טוֹב הָרִאשׁוֹן שֶׁל חַג? שֶׁלֹּא יִמְדּוֹד לֹא בְּשֶׁל שְׁלֹשָׁה לְפַר וְלֹא בְּשֶׁל שְׁנַיִם לָאַיִל. וְרַבִּי מֵאִיר נְקוּדֵּי לָא דָּרֵישׁ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **And** as for **the Rabbis,** from where do they derive that *halakha*? The Gemara explains: **They derive** it **from its dot.** In the Torah text, a dot appears above the term “a tenth.” This is **as it is taught** in a *baraita*: **Rabbi Yosei says: Why is** the letter ***vav* in the middle of** the term **“a tenth [*issaron*]” dotted** the **first** time that the term **“a tenth”** appears in the verse **concerning** the **first festival day of the Festival** of *Sukkot*? The verse there states: “And a tenth, a tenth, for every lamb of the fourteen lambs” (Numbers 29:15). This serves to teach **that one should not measure** flour using a vessel of a size that holds the entire volume required, i.e., **neither with** a vessel that holds **three-**tenths of an ephah **for** the meal offering of **a bull, nor with** a vessel that holds two-tenths of an ephah **for** the meal offering of **a ram. And** as for **Rabbi Meir,** what does he derive from the dot? **He does not derive** anything from **its dot.** He holds that the dot is not significant enough to be expounded.


###### Menachot 87b:6
[Menachot 87b:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:6)

חֲצִי עִשָּׂרוֹן, מָה הָיָה מְשַׁמֵּשׁ? שֶׁבּוֹ הָיָה מוֹדֵד לַחֲבִיתֵּי כֹּהֵן גָּדוֹל.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ The mishna teaches: **What** purpose **did** the **one-half of a tenth** of an ephah measuring vessel **serve?** It was the vessel **with which one would measure** the flour **for the High Priest’s griddle-cake** offering. A tenth of an ephah was required each day; he sacrificed half in the morning and the other half in the afternoon. From the mishna it appears that each half-tenth is measured separately.


###### Menachot 87b:7
[Menachot 87b:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:7)

מוֹדֵד? וּרְמִינְהִי: חֲבִיתֵּי כֹּהֵן גָּדוֹל לֹא הָיוּ בָּאִין חֲצָאִין, אֶלָּא מֵבִיא עִשָּׂרוֹן שָׁלֵם וְחוֹצֵהוּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The mishna indicates that the half-tenth vessel was used for **measuring. And** the Gemara **raises a contradiction** to this from a mishna (50b): The twelve loaves of *matza*, baked from a tenth of an ephah of flour, of the **griddle-cake** offering **of the High Priest did not come** from the house of the High Priest **in halves. Rather,** the High Priest **brings** from his house **a complete tenth** of an ephah of flour (see Leviticus 6:13) **and divides it** in half, and he sacrifices half in the morning and half in the afternoon. It is apparent from this mishna that the tenth of an ephah is first measured in its entirety and only then divided.


###### Menachot 87b:8
[Menachot 87b:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:8)

אָמַר רַב שֵׁשֶׁת: מַאי ״מוֹדֵד״ נָמֵי דְּקָתָנֵי? מְחַלֵּק.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
To resolve the contradiction **Rav Sheshet said: What is** the meaning of: Used for **measuring, that** the mishna here **teaches?** It means only that the High Priest would **divide** the tenth of an ephah into two equal portions using the half-tenth measure, but the quantity would initially be measured in its entirety, as the mishna on 50b states.


###### Menachot 87b:9
[Menachot 87b:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:9)

בְּעָא מִינֵּיהּ רָמֵי בַּר חָמָא מֵרַב חִסְדָּא: חֲצִי עִשָּׂרוֹן, לְרַבִּי מֵאִיר – גָּדוּשׁ הָיָה אוֹ מָחוּק הָיָה?

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ In light of Rabbi Meir’s opinion that there were two vessels for measuring a tenth of an ephah, one that held its measure when leveled and one when it was heaped, **Rami bar Ḥama raised a dilemma before Rav Ḥisda:** With regard to the **one-half of a tenth** of an ephah measuring vessel, **according to** the opinion of **Rabbi Meir, was** it one that held its measure when **heaped or was** it one that held its measure when **leveled?**


###### Menachot 87b:10
[Menachot 87b:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:10)

(סִימָן: חֲצִי, חֲבִיתֵּי, שֻׁלְחָן).

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Before citing Rav Ḥisda’s response, the Gemara provides **a mnemonic** that alludes to the three dilemmas it will immediately present: **Half; griddle-cake** offering; **Table.** This alludes to one-half of a tenth of an ephah; the High Priest’s griddle-cake offering; and the shewbread Table.


###### Menachot 87b:11
[Menachot 87b:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:11)

וְתִיבְּעֵי לָךְ לְרַבָּנַן? לְרַבָּנַן, עִשָּׂרוֹן גּוּפֵיהּ קָא מִיבַּעְיָא לְהוּ: גָּדוּשׁ הָיָה אוֹ מָחוּק הָיָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥisda said to Rami bar Ḥama: **But** why do you ask specifically with regard to the opinion of Rabbi Meir? **The dilemma can be raised according to** the opinion of **the Rabbis.** Rami bar Ḥama answered: **According to** the opinion of **the Rabbis,** it would be with regard to the measuring vessel of **a tenth** of an ephah **itself** that **one raises the dilemma,** asking whether it **was** one that held its measure when **heaped or was** one that held its measure when **leveled.** The dilemma I raised concerned the half-tenth vessel, which is pertinent specifically according to the opinion of Rabbi Meir, as he holds that there were both heaped and leveled measuring vessels of a tenth of an ephah.


###### Menachot 87b:12
[Menachot 87b:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:12)

אֲמַר לֵיהּ: מִדְּרַבִּי מֵאִיר נִשְׁמַע לְרַבִּי מֵאִיר, וּמִדְּרַבִּי מֵאִיר נִשְׁמַע לְרַבָּנַן.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
In answer to Rami bar Ḥama’s dilemma, Rav Ḥisda **said to him: From** the opinion **of Rabbi Meir** concerning the vessel of a tenth of an ephah **we can extrapolate** what **Rabbi Meir** holds concerning the vessel of one-half of a tenth of an ephah; **and from** that opinion **of Rabbi Meir we can extrapolate** what **the Rabbis** hold concerning both vessels.


###### Menachot 87b:13
[Menachot 87b:13](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:13)

מִדְּאָמַר רַבִּי מֵאִיר: עִשָּׂרוֹן מָחוּק, חֲצִי עִשָּׂרוֹן נָמֵי מָחוּק; מִדְּרַבִּי מֵאִיר מָחוּק, לְרַבָּנַן נָמֵי מָחוּק.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥisda elaborates: **From** the fact **that Rabbi Meir said** that the vessel of **a tenth** of an ephah used for the High Priest’s griddle-cake offering held its measure when **leveled,** we can extrapolate that the vessel of **one-half of a tenth, as well,** was such that it held its measure when **leveled.** It is reasonable that since both vessels were used for the same offering, they should be of the same type. And **from** the fact **that Rabbi Meir** holds that vessels used for the High Priest’s griddle-cake offering held their measures when **leveled,** we can extrapolate that **also according to the Rabbis,** who hold that both vessels were used for the High Priest’s griddle-cake offering, both of them held their measures when **leveled.**


###### Menachot 87b:14
[Menachot 87b:14](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:14)

בְּעָא מִינֵּיהּ רָמֵי בַּר חָמָא מֵרַב חִסְדָּא: חֲבִיתֵּי כֹּהֵן גָּדוֹל בַּמֶּה מְחַלְּקָן לְחַלּוֹת, בַּיָּד אוֹ בִּכְלִי? פְּשִׁיטָא דִּבְיַד, דְּאִי בִּכְלִי – טוּרְטָנֵי יַכְנִיס?!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rami bar Ḥama raised** another **dilemma before Rav Ḥisda:** With regard to the dough used for the **High Priest’s griddle-cake** offering, **with what** would **one divide it into** the **loaves** of the offering, six in the morning and six in the afternoon? Was the division done **with** one’s **hand or with** a measuring **vessel?** Rav Ḥisda said to him: It is **obvious that** it was divided **with** one’s **hand, as if** one suggests that it was done **with** a measuring **vessel, would one bring scales [*turtanei*]** into the Temple courtyard for this purpose?


###### Menachot 87b:15
[Menachot 87b:15](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:15)

וְיַכְנִיס! כֵּיוָן דְּבִקְלָלָה כְּתִיב, לָאו אוֹרַח אַרְעָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rami bar Ḥama responds: **And let him bring** scales into the courtyard. Rav Ḥisda explains: **Since in** God’s admonition of the Jewish people the act of weighing bread is **written** as part of **a curse:** “When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver your bread again by weight; and you shall eat and not be satisfied” (Leviticus 26:26), as weighing bread is generally performed only at a time of famine, therefore it is **not proper conduct** to weigh the dough in the Temple.


###### Menachot 87b:16
[Menachot 87b:16](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:16)

בְּעָא מִינֵּיהּ רָמֵי בַּר חָמָא מֵרַב חִסְדָּא: שֻׁלְחָן מַהוּ שֶׁיְּקַדֵּשׁ קְמָצִים בְּגוֹדֶשׁ שֶׁלּוֹ? מִדִּמְקַדֵּשׁ לֶחֶם, קְמָצִים נָמֵי מְקַדֵּשׁ, אוֹ דִלְמָא דַּחֲזֵי לֵיהּ מְקַדֵּשׁ, דְּלָא חֲזֵי לֵיהּ לָא מְקַדֵּשׁ?

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rami bar Ḥama raised** another **dilemma before Rav Ḥisda:** With regard to the shewbread **Table, what is** the *halakha* **as** to whether **it consecrates handfuls** removed from meal offerings or from frankincense that were not consecrated by being placed in a service vessel, as they should have been, but were instead placed **on the upper part of** the Table, between the rows of shewbread? The Gemara clarifies the dilemma: Does one say that **from** the fact that the Table **consecrates** the **loaves** of shewbread placed upon it, it follows that it **also consecrates handfuls** placed upon it? **Or perhaps** the Table **consecrates** only that **which is fit for it,** i.e., the loaves, but it **does not consecrate** that **which is not fit for it,** such as the handfuls.


###### Menachot 87b:17
[Menachot 87b:17](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:17)

אֲמַר לֵיהּ: אֵינוֹ מְקַדֵּשׁ. אִינִי? וְהָאָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: לְדִבְרֵי הָאוֹמֵר טִפְחַיִים וּמֶחֱצָה קוֹפֵל, נִמְצָא שֻׁלְחָן מְקַדֵּשׁ חֲמִשָּׁה עָשָׂר טֶפַח לְמַעְלָה. לְדִבְרֵי הָאוֹמֵר טִפְחַיִים קוֹפֵל, נִמְצָא שֻׁלְחָן מְקַדֵּשׁ שְׁנֵים עָשָׂר טֶפַח לְמַעְלָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥisda **said to him:** The Table **does not consecrate** these handfuls. Rami bar Ḥama retorted: **Is that so? But didn’t Rabbi Yoḥanan say:** The shewbread loaves were longer than the length of the Table. Accordingly, it was necessary to fold the edges of the loaves in order that they would rest entirely upon the Table itself and not protrude past its edges. How much of each side needed to be folded up is subject to a tannaitic dispute concerning the length of the Table (see 96a). **According to the statement of the one who says** that **one folds two and a half handbreadths** from each side of the loaves, **it emerges** that the **Table consecrates fifteen handbreadths above it,** as there were six loaves on each side of the Table, which were each two and a half handbreadths high. And **according to the statement of the one who says** that **one folds two handbreadths** from each side of the loaves, **it emerges** that the **Table consecrates twelve handbreadths above it.** Rabbi Yoḥanan stated that the Table consecrates that which is placed above it, regardless of whether it is fit for the Table or not.


###### Menachot 87b:18
[Menachot 87b:18](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:18)

אֲמַר לֵיהּ: אֵינוֹ מְקַדֵּשׁ לִיקְרַב, אֲבָל מְקַדֵּשׁ לִיפָּסֵל.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
Rav Ḥisda **said to him:** When I said that the Table does not consecrate the handfuls, I meant that it **does not consecrate** them **to** the extent that they can **be sacrificed** on the altar. **But** it certainly **consecrates** them **to** the extent that they will **be disqualified** by the same disqualifications that apply to handfuls that were consecrated by being placed in a service vessel, e.g., by being left overnight or by coming in contact with a ritually impure person who had immersed that day.


###### Menachot 87b:19
[Menachot 87b:19](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:19)

**מַתְנִי׳** שֶׁבַע מִדּוֹת שֶׁל לַח הָיוּ בְּמִקְדָּשׁ, הִין, וַחֲצִי הִין, וּשְׁלִישִׁית הַהִין, וּרְבִיעִית הַהִין.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**MISHNA:** **There were seven measuring vessels for liquids in the Temple.** There was a vessel of one ***hin*,** i.e., twelve *log*. Three vessels were used to measure the oil and wine for the meal offerings and libations that accompanied the sacrifice of an animal. For a bull there was a vessel of **one**-**half of a *hin*,** i.e., six *log*; **and** for a ram there was one of **one-third of a *hin*,** i.e., four *log*; **and** for a lamb there was one of **one-quarter of a *hin*,** i.e., three *log*.


###### Menachot 87b:20
[Menachot 87b:20](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:20)

לוֹג, וַחֲצִי לוֹג, וּרְבִיעִית לוֹג.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
In addition, there was a vessel that held one ***log*** to measure the oil for all standard meal offerings; **and** another one that held **one**-**half of a *log*** for measuring the water used in the rite of a woman suspected by her husband of having been unfaithful [*sota*] and also for the oil used in the loaves accompanying the thanks offering (see 88a); **and** another one that held **one-quarter of a *log*** for measuring the water used in the purification of a leper and also for the oil used in the wafers and loaves that the nazirite brings on the day that his term of naziriteship ends.


###### Menachot 87b:21
[Menachot 87b:21](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:21)

רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בַּר רַבִּי צָדוֹק אוֹמֵר: שְׁנָתוֹת הָיוּ בַּהִין, עַד כָּאן לַפָּר, וְעַד כָּאן לָאַיִל, עַד כָּאן לַכֶּבֶשׂ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rabbi Eliezer, son of Rabbi Tzadok, says:** It was not necessary to have several vessels of different sizes; rather, **there were graduations [*shenatot*] on** the vessel that held one ***hin*** indicating that **until here** is the quantity needed **for the bull, and until here** is the quantity needed **for the ram,** and **until here** is the quantity needed **for the lamb.**


###### Menachot 87b:22
[Menachot 87b:22](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:22)

רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן אוֹמֵר: לֹא הָיָה שָׁם הִין, וְכִי מֶה הָיָה הִין מְשַׁמֵּשׁ? אֶלָּא מִדָּה יְתֵירָה שֶׁל לוֹג וּמֶחֱצָה הָיְתָה שָׁם, שֶׁבָּהּ הָיָה מוֹדֵד לְמִנְחַת כֹּהֵן גָּדוֹל – לוֹג וּמֶחֱצָה בַּבּוֹקֶר, לוֹג וּמֶחֱצָה בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rabbi Shimon says: There was no** vessel **there** in the Temple that held one ***hin*, as what** purpose **could** a one**-hin** vessel **serve?** That volume of liquid was never used in an offering. **Rather, there was an additional measuring vessel of one and a half *log* there,** in the Temple, which completed the tally of seven vessels, **with which one would measure** the oil used **for the** griddle-cake **meal offering of the High Priest; one and a half *log*** were used **in the morning and one and a half *log* in the afternoon.**


###### Menachot 87b:23
[Menachot 87b:23](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Menachot/r/87b:23)

**גְּמָ׳** תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן: שֶׁבַע מִדּוֹת שֶׁל לַח הָיוּ בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ – רְבִיעִית לוֹג, וַחֲצִי לוֹג, וְלוֹג, וּרְבִיעִית הַהִין, וּשְׁלִישִׁית הַהִין, וַחֲצִי הִין, וְהִין, דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי יְהוּדָה. רַבִּי מֵאִיר אוֹמֵר: הִין, וַחֲצִי הִין, וּשְׁלִישִׁית הַהִין, וּרְבִיעִית הַהִין, וְלוֹג, וַחֲצִי לוֹג, וּרְבִיעִית לוֹג. רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן אוֹמֵר: לֹא הָיָה שָׁם הִין, וְכִי מָה הָיָה הִין מְשַׁמֵּשׁ?

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**GEMARA:** **The Sages taught** in a *baraita*: **There were seven measuring vessels for liquids in the Temple.** Listed in ascending order of size, they held: **One-quarter of a *log*; one-half of a *log*;** one ***log*; one-quarter of a *hin*; one-third of a *hin*; one-half of a *hin*; and** one ***hin*.** This is **the statement of Rabbi Yehuda. Rabbi Meir says** that there were these seven vessels but he lists them in descending order: One ***hin*; one-half of a *hin*; one-third of a *hin*; one-quarter of a *hin*;** one ***log*; one-half of a *log*; and one-quarter of a *log*. Rabbi Shimon says: There was no** vessel **there** in the Temple that held one ***hin*, as what** purpose **could** a one**-hin** vessel **serve?** That volume of liquid was never used in an offering.