## Sukkah Daf 17a

###### Sukkah 17a:1
[Sukkah 17a:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:1)

**מַתְנִי׳** הִרְחִיק אֶת הַסִּיכּוּךְ מִן הַדְּפָנוֹת שְׁלֹשָׁה טְפָחִים — פְּסוּלָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**MISHNA:** If **one distanced the roofing from the walls** of the *sukka* at **a distance of three handbreadths** the *sukka* is **unfit,** because three handbreadths of open space, even adjacent to the walls, render the *sukka* unfit.


###### Sukkah 17a:2
[Sukkah 17a:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:2)

בַּיִת שֶׁנִּפְחַת וְסִיכֵּךְ עַל גַּבָּיו — אִם יֵשׁ מִן הַכּוֹתֶל לַסִּיכּוּךְ אַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת, פְּסוּלָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
In the case of **a house that was breached,** creating a hole in the middle of the roof, **and one roofed over** the breach, **if from the wall to the roofing there are four** or more **cubits** of the remaining original roof, **it is an unfit** *sukka*. If the roofing is less than four cubits from the wall, the *sukka* is fit, based on the principle of curved wall; the remaining intact ceiling is considered an extension of the vertical wall.


###### Sukkah 17a:3
[Sukkah 17a:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:3)

וְכֵן חָצֵר שֶׁהִיא מוּקֶּפֶת אַכְסַדְרָה, סוּכָּה גְּדוֹלָה שֶׁהִקִּיפוּהָ בְּדָבָר שֶׁאֵין מְסַכְּכִין בּוֹ — אִם יֵשׁ תַּחְתָּיו אַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת, פְּסוּלָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And likewise,** in the case of **a courtyard that is surrounded** on three sides **by a portico,** which has a roof but no walls, if one placed roofing over the courtyard between the different sides of the portico and the roof of the portico is four cubits wide, the *sukka* is unfit. Similarly, **a large *sukka* that was surrounded** at the edge of its roofing **with material with which one** may **not roof** a *sukka*, e.g., vessels susceptible to ritual impurity, **if there are four cubits beneath** the unfit roofing, the *sukka* is **unfit.** The principle of curved wall does not apply to unfit roofing that measures four cubits or more.


###### Sukkah 17a:4
[Sukkah 17a:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:4)

**גְּמָ׳** כׇּל הָנֵי לְמָה לִי? צְרִיכָא: דְּאִי אַשְׁמְעִינַן בַּיִת שֶׁנִּפְחַת — מִשּׁוּם דְּהָנֵי מְחִיצוֹת לְבַיִת עֲבִידָן. אֲבָל חָצֵר הַמּוּקֶּפֶת אַכְסַדְרָה, דִּמְחִיצוֹת לָאו לְאַכְסַדְרָה עֲבִידִי — אֵימָא לָא, צְרִיכָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**GEMARA:** The Gemara asks: **Why do I need all these** cases based on the identical principle of curved wall? The Gemara explains: It is **necessary** to cite all the cases, **as, if** the mishna had **taught us** only the case of **the house that was breached,** I would have said that the principle of curved wall applies there **because those walls were established for the house.** Therefore, when the house is transformed into a *sukka*, the walls continue to serve their original function as walls of the *sukka*. **However,** with regard to **a courtyard surrounded** on each of the three sides **by a portico,** where its **walls were established not for the portico** but for the house that opens into the portico, and they happen to serve as the interior walls of the portico, I could **say no,** they are not considered as connected to the roofing at all. Consequently, it is **necessary** for the mishna to cite that case as well.


###### Sukkah 17a:5
[Sukkah 17a:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:5)

וְאִי אַשְׁמְעִינַן הָנֵי תַּרְתֵּי, מִשּׁוּם דִּסְכָכָן סְכָךְ כָּשֵׁר הוּא, אֲבָל סוּכָּה גְּדוֹלָה שֶׁהִקִּיפוּהָ בְּדָבָר שֶׁאֵין מְסַכְּכִין בּוֹ, דִּסְכָכָהּ סְכָךְ פָּסוּל הוּא — אֵימָא לָא, צְרִיכָא.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And if** the mishna **taught us** only **these two** cases, one would have said that the principle of curved wall can apply **because** all of **their roofing is fit roofing,** and the preexisting roof of the house and the portico is unfit only due to the principle: Prepare it, and not from that which has already been prepared. **However,** here, in the case of **a large *sukka* that was surrounded** at the edge of its roofing **with material with which one** may **not roof** a *sukka*, where some of its **roofing is unfit** and the fit roofing does not actually reach the wall, one could **say no,** the roofing is unfit. Therefore, it is **necessary** to state that case as well.


###### Sukkah 17a:6
[Sukkah 17a:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:6)

אָמַר רַבָּה: אַשְׁכַּחְתִּינְהוּ לְרַבָּנַן דְּבֵי רַב דְּיָתְבִי וְקָאָמְרִי: אֲוִיר פּוֹסֵל בִּשְׁלֹשָׁה, סְכָךְ פָּסוּל פּוֹסֵל בְּאַרְבָּעָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ **Rabba said: I found the Sages of the school of Rav, who were sitting and saying** in the name of Rav: **Space** without roofing **renders** the *sukka* **unfit with** a measure of **three** handbreadths of space. However, **unfit roofing renders** the *sukka* **unfit with** a measure of **four** handbreadths.


###### Sukkah 17a:7
[Sukkah 17a:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:7)

וְאָמֵינָא לְהוּ אֲנָא: אֲוִיר דְּפוֹסֵל בִּשְׁלֹשָׁה מְנָא לְכוּ — דִּתְנַן: הִרְחִיק אֶת הַסִּיכּוּךְ מִן הַדְּפָנוֹת שְׁלֹשָׁה טְפָחִים — פְּסוּלָה. סְכָךְ פָּסוּל נָמֵי לָא לִיפְסֹיל אֶלָּא בְּאַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת, דִּתְנַן: בַּיִת שֶׁנִּפְחַת וְסִיכֵּךְ עַל גַּבָּיו, אִם יֵשׁ בֵּין הַסִּיכּוּךְ לַכּוֹתֶל אַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת — פְּסוּלָה!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And I said to them: From where** do **you** derive that **space renders** the *sukka* **unfit** when it amounts to **three** handbreadths? It is **as we learned** in the mishna: If **one distanced the roofing from the walls** of the *sukka* **at a distance of three handbreadths,** the *sukka* is **unfit.** If, indeed, this mishna is the source of the *halakha*, **also** in the case of **unfit roofing, let it render** the *sukka* **unfit only** if the roofing measures **four cubits, as we learned** in the same mishna: With regard to **a house that was breached and one roofed over** the breach, **if from the wall to the roofing there is four** or more **cubits** of the remaining original roof, the *sukka* is **unfit.**


###### Sukkah 17a:8
[Sukkah 17a:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:8)

וַאֲמַרוּ לִי: בַּר מִינַּהּ דְּהַהִיא, דְּרַב וּשְׁמוּאֵל אָמְרִי תַּרְוַיְיהוּ: מִשּׁוּם דּוֹפֶן עֲקוּמָּה נָגְעוּ בָּהּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And they said to me:** Cite proof from the mishna, **apart from this** case, **as both Rav and Shmuel said that** in this case, the Sages in the mishna **touched upon** the principle of **curved wall**. In other words, the fact that this house is a fit *sukka* is unrelated to the minimum measure of unfit roofing. It is fit due to the principle of curved wall.


###### Sukkah 17a:9
[Sukkah 17a:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:9)

וְאָמֵינָא לְהוּ אֲנָא: מָה אִילּוּ אִיכָּא סְכָךְ פָּסוּל פָּחוֹת מֵאַרְבָּעָה וַאֲוִיר פָּחוֹת מִשְּׁלֹשָׁה מַאי? כְּשֵׁרָה. מַלְּיֵיהּ בְּשַׁפּוּדִין מַאי — פְּסוּלָה, וְלֹא יְהֵא אֲוִיר הַפּוֹסֵל בִּשְׁלֹשָׁה כִּסְכָךְ פָּסוּל הַפּוֹסֵל בְּאַרְבָּעָה!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And I said to them: What if** there **is** a *sukka* with **less than four** handbreadths of **unfit roofing and** an adjacent **space** of **less than three** handbreadths; **what** would be the status of the *sukka*? The *sukka* would be **fit,** since it lacks the minimum measure of both space and unfit roofing that renders a *sukka* unfit. If one then **filled** the space **with skewers, what** would be the status of the *sukka*? It would be **unfit,** as there would be more than four handbreadths of unfit roofing. **But shouldn’t space, which** is more stringent, as it **renders** the *sukka* **unfit with** only **three** handbreadths, **be as** stringent as **unfit roofing, which renders** the *sukka* **unfit** only **with four** handbreadths of unfit roofing?


###### Sukkah 17a:10
[Sukkah 17a:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:10)

וַאֲמַרוּ לִי: אִי הָכִי, לְדִידָךְ נָמֵי דְּאָמְרַתְּ סְכָךְ פָּסוּל פּוֹסֵל בְּאַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת, מָה אִילּוּ אִיכָּא סְכָךְ פָּסוּל פָּחוֹת מֵאַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת וַאֲוִיר פָּחוֹת מִשְּׁלֹשָׁה, מַאי? כְּשֵׁרָה. מַלְּיֵיהּ בְּשַׁפּוּדִין מַאי — פְּסוּלָה. לֹא יְהֵא אֲוִיר הַפּוֹסֵל בִּשְׁלֹשָׁה כִּסְכָךְ פָּסוּל הַפּוֹסֵל בְּאַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And they said to me: If so, according to you, who said** that **unfit roofing renders** a *sukka* **unfit** only **with four cubits** of unfit roofing, the same question arises. **Just as, if there were** a *sukka* with **less than four cubits of unfit roofing and** an adjacent **space** measuring **less than three** handbreadths, **what** would be its status? It would be **fit.** If one then **filled** the space **with skewers,** what would be its status? It would be **unfit.** Here too, the question arises: **Shouldn’t space, which** is more stringent, as it **renders** the *sukka* **unfit with** only **three** handbreadths of space, **be as** stringent as **unfit roofing, which renders** the *sukka* **unfit with** only **four cubits** of unfit roofing?


###### Sukkah 17a:11
[Sukkah 17a:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Sukkah/r/17a:11)

וְאָמֵינָא לְהוּ אֲנָא: הַאי מַאי? בִּשְׁלָמָא לְדִידִי דְּאָמֵינָא אַרְבַּע אַמּוֹת —

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And I said to them: What is this** comparison? **Granted, according to** my opinion, **that I say** that the measure of unfit roofing that renders a *sukka* unfit is **four cubits,**