## Temurah Daf 15b

###### Temurah 15b:1
[Temurah 15b:1](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:1)

וְהָתַנְיָא: כַּיּוֹצֵא בּוֹ אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹסֵי: ״וְהַבָּאִים מֵהַשְּׁבִי בְנֵי הַגּוֹלָה הִקְרִיבוּ עוֹלוֹת... פָּרִים בְּנֵי בָקָר שְׁנֵים עָשָׂר... אֵילִים תִּשְׁעִים וְתִשְׁעָה, כְּבָשִׂים שִׁבְעִים וְשִׁבְעָה, שְׂעִירֵי חַטָּאת שְׁנֵים עָשָׂר — הַכֹּל עוֹלָה לַה׳״.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**But isn’t it taught** in a *baraita*: **Similarly, Rabbi Yosei said:** It is stated with regard to those who returned from Babylonia in the days of Ezra: **“The children of the captivity that came out of exile sacrificed burnt offerings** to the God of Israel, **twelve bulls** for all Israel, **ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, twelve goats for a sin offering; all this was a burnt offering unto the Lord”** (Ezra 8:35).


###### Temurah 15b:2
[Temurah 15b:2](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:2)

וְחַטָּאת מִי קָרְבָה עוֹלָה? אָמַר רָבָא: כִּי עוֹלָה, מָה עוֹלָה אֵינָהּ נֶאֱכֶלֶת — אַף חַטָּאת אֵינָהּ נֶאֱכֶלֶת, שֶׁהָיָה רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר: עַל עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה הֱבִיאוּם, וְאָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: עַל עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה שֶׁעָשׂוּ בִּימֵי צִדְקִיָּהוּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara first analyzes this verse: **But is** it possible for **a sin offering** to be **sacrificed** as **a burnt offering? Rava said:** The verse means that it was all performed in the manner **of a burnt offering: Just as a burnt offering may not be eaten, so too,** that **sin offering** was **not eaten. As Rabbi Yosei would say: They brought these** twelve sin offerings **for** the sin of **idol worship; and Rav Yehuda said** that **Shmuel said:** They were brought **for the** sin of **idol worship they committed in the days of** King **Zedekiah.**


###### Temurah 15b:3
[Temurah 15b:3](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:3)

קָא סָלְקָא דַּעְתִּין, לְמַאן דְּאִית לֵיהּ חַטַּאת צִבּוּר שֶׁנִּתְכַּפְּרוּ בְּעָלֶיהָ — מֵתָה, אִית לֵיהּ נָמֵי חַטַּאת צִבּוּר שֶׁמֵּתוּ בְּעָלֶיהָ — מֵתָה, וְהָא הָכָא דְּאִיכָּא דְּמֵתוּ בַּעֲלֵיהּ, וְקָא קָרְבָה!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara explains the difficulty concerning which it cited this verse: It might **enter our mind** to think that **according to the one who holds** that **a communal sin offering whose owners achieved atonement** with another sin offering is left to **die,** he **also holds** that **a communal sin offering whose owners died** is left to **die. But here,** with regard to the offerings brought by the returning exiles, **this is** a case **of** a communal sin offering **whose owners died,** as the sin was committed in the time of Zedekiah, in the First Temple period, whereas the offerings were brought several generations later by those returning to rebuild the Second Temple. **And** yet **they were sacrificed.** This proves that a communal sin offering whose owners achieved atonement with another sin offering is not left to die.


###### Temurah 15b:4
[Temurah 15b:4](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:4)

אָמַר רַב פָּפָּא: אֲפִילּוּ לְמַאן דְּאָמַר חַטַּאת צִבּוּר שֶׁכִּפְּרוּ בְּעָלֶיהָ מֵתָה, חַטַּאת צִבּוּר שֶׁמֵּתוּ בְּעָלֶיהָ אֵינָהּ מֵתָה, לְפִי שֶׁאֵין הַצִּבּוּר מֵתִים.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rav Pappa said** in response: **Even according to the one who said** that **a communal sin offering whose owners achieved atonement** with another sin offering is left to **die,** he agrees that **a communal sin offering whose owners died is not** left to **die.** This is **because a community does not die.**


###### Temurah 15b:5
[Temurah 15b:5](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:5)

מְנָא לֵיהּ לְרַב פָּפָּא הָא? אִי נֵימָא מִשּׁוּם דִּכְתִיב ״תַּחַת אֲבוֹתֶיךָ יִהְיוּ בָנֶיךָ״, אִי הָכִי, אֲפִילּוּ יָחִיד נָמֵי!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **From where does Rav Pappa derive this** statement? **If we say** it is **because it is written: “Your sons shall be instead of your fathers”** (Psalms 45:17), i.e., it is considered as though the fathers are alive, **if so,** then this should apply **even** to **an individual as well.** In other words, sons should be able to sacrifice the sin offerings of their late fathers.


###### Temurah 15b:6
[Temurah 15b:6](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:6)

אֶלָּא הַיְינוּ טַעְמָא, שֶׁאֵין הַצִּיבּוּר מֵתִים, מִשְּׂעִירֵי רְגָלִים וְרָאשֵׁי חֳדָשִׁים, דְּאָמַר רַחֲמָנָא: אַיְיתִינְהוּ מִתְּרוּמַת הַלִּשְׁכָּה. וְדִלְמָא מִתוּ מָרַיְיהוּ דְּהָנֵי זוּזֵי? אֶלָּא לָאו שְׁמַע מִינַּהּ אֵין הַצִּבּוּר מֵתִים.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**Rather, this is** Rav Pappa’s **reasoning** for his statement **that a community does not die.** It is derived **from** the *halakha* of **the goats** sacrificed on **pilgrimage Festivals and** on **New Moons, as the Merciful One states: Bring them from the** funds of the **collection of the** Temple treasury **chamber,** where they kept the half-shekels donated every year in the month of Adar, with which communal offerings were purchased. The Gemara explains: **But perhaps the owners of these coins** that were used to purchase these offerings **have died** in the meantime between the month of Adar and when the offerings are sacrificed throughout the year. If so, how can a sin offering be brought on behalf of some of its owners who have already died? **Rather, isn’t it** correct to **conclude from** this *halakha* that **a community does not die?**


###### Temurah 15b:7
[Temurah 15b:7](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:7)

וְאִיבָּעֵית אֵימָא: כִּי אַקְרוּבִינְהוּ לְהָנֵי חַטָּאוֹת — אַחַיֵּי אַקְרֻבִינְהוּ, דִּכְתִיב: ״וְרַבִּים מֵהַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם וְרָאשֵׁי הָאָבוֹת הַזְּקֵנִים אֲשֶׁר רָאוּ אֶת הַבַּיִת הָרִאשׁוֹן בְּיׇסְדוֹ זֶה הַבַּיִת... בּוֹכִים בְּקוֹל גָּדוֹל וְרַבִּים בִּתְרוּעָה״.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And if you wish, say** instead a different answer in response to the earlier difficulty: The sin offerings for idolatry brought by the returning exiles were not in fact sacrificed for people who had died. Rather, **when they sacrificed these sin offerings** for the idolatry committed in the time of Zedekiah, **they sacrificed them for the living,** i.e., for those survivors who had worshipped idols in the time of Zedekiah and were still alive many decades later and had returned to rebuild the Second Temple. **As it is written: “But many of the priests, Levites, and heads of fathers’ houses, the old men that had seen the first house standing on its foundation, wept with a loud voice when this house** was before their eyes; **and many shouted aloud** for joy” (Ezra 3:12).


###### Temurah 15b:8
[Temurah 15b:8](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:8)

וְדִילְמָא הָנָךְ מִיעוּטָא? לָא מָצֵית אָמְרַתְּ, דִּכְתִיב ״וְלֹא הִכִּירוּ הָעָם בַּתְּרוּעָה וְשִׂמְחָה לְקוֹל בְּכִי הָעָם״.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara objects: **But perhaps those** who remained and remembered the First Temple were **the minority,** in which case they should have each brought individual sin offerings, rather than a communal sin offering. The fact that they brought communal sacrifices indicates that the sin offering was not brought only on behalf of those few who remained. The Gemara explains: **You cannot say** that they were the minority, **as it is written** in the following verse: **“So that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people;** for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the noise was heard afar off” (Ezra 3:13). This verse shows that the people who cried because they remembered the First Temple were not a small minority.


###### Temurah 15b:9
[Temurah 15b:9](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:9)

וְהֵיכִי מַקְרְבִי לְהוּ? וַהֲרֵי מְזִידִין הֲווֹ! אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: הוֹרָאַת שָׁעָה הָיְתָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara asks: **But how could they sacrifice** sin offerings for the sin of idolatry? After all, **they were intentional** idol worshippers, and a sin offering is brought only by one who sins unwittingly. **Rabbi Yoḥanan says** in response: **It was a provisional edict** issued in exigent circumstances, according to which they were permitted to bring sin offerings even for intentional sins.


###### Temurah 15b:10
[Temurah 15b:10](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:10)

הָכִי נָמֵי מִסְתַּבְּרָא, דְּאִי לָא תֵּימָא הָכִי — בִּשְׁלָמָא פָּרִים וּשְׂעִירִים כְּנֶגֶד שְׁנֵים עָשָׂר שְׁבָטִים, אֶלָּא כְּבָשִׂים כְּנֶגֶד מִי? אֶלָּא הוֹרָאַת שָׁעָה הָיְתָה.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara adds that **this also stands to reason, as, if you do not say so,** one can object as follows: **Granted,** they sacrificed twelve **bulls and goats,** since each tribe must bring a communal sin offering, as stated in the Torah (Numbers, chapter 15), and these offerings **correspond to** the **twelve tribes. But to what** do **the** ninety-six **sheep correspond? Rather,** it must be that **it was a provisional edict.**


###### Temurah 15b:11
[Temurah 15b:11](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:11)

תְּנַן הָתָם: מִשֶּׁמֵּת יוֹסֵף בֶּן יוֹעֶזֶר אִישׁ צְרֵידָה וְיוֹסֵף בֶּן יוֹחָנָן אִישׁ יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, בָּטְלוּ הָאֶשְׁכּוֹלוֹת. אִישׁ שֶׁהַכֹּל בּוֹ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
§ Earlier the Gemara mentioned the *halakha* of a sin offering whose owner died, which was one of the *halakhot* forgotten during the mourning period for Moses (see 16a). On this topic the Gemara says that **we learned** in a mishna **there** (*Sota* 47a): **From** the time **when Yosef ben Yo’ezer of Tzereida and Yosef ben Yoḥanan of Jerusalem died, the clusters [*eshkolot*] ceased,** i.e., they were the last of the clusters. The Gemara asks: What is the meaning of *eshkolot*? It means **a man who contains all [*ish shehakol bo*],** i.e., both Torah and mitzvot.


###### Temurah 15b:12
[Temurah 15b:12](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:12)

וְאָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה, אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: כׇּל אֶשְׁכּוֹלוֹת שֶׁעָמְדוּ לָהֶן לְיִשְׂרָאֵל מִימוֹת מֹשֶׁה עַד שֶׁמֵּת יוֹסֵף בֶּן יוֹעֶזֶר — הָיוּ לְמֵדִין תּוֹרָה כְּמֹשֶׁה רַבֵּינוּ, מִכָּאן וְאֵילָךְ — לֹא הָיוּ לְמֵדִין תּוֹרָה כְּמֹשֶׁה רַבֵּינוּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And Rav Yehuda says** that **Shmuel says: All** the **clusters who stood** at the head **of the Jewish people, from the days of Moses until Yosef ben Yo’ezer died, would study Torah** in the manner **of Moses, our teacher. From that** point **forward they would not study Torah** in the manner **of Moses, our teacher.**


###### Temurah 15b:13
[Temurah 15b:13](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:13)

וְהָאָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: שְׁלֹשֶׁת אֲלָפִים הֲלָכוֹת נִשְׁתַּכְּחוּ בִּימֵי אֶבְלוֹ שֶׁל מֹשֶׁה! דְּאִישְׁתְּכֻח לְהוּ — אִישְׁתְּכֻח, וְדִגְמִירָן לְהוּ — הֲווֹ גְּמִירִי כְּמֹשֶׁה רַבֵּינוּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara objects: **But doesn’t Rav Yehuda say** that **Shmuel said: Three thousand *halakhot* were forgotten during the days of mourning for Moses.** This suggests that the Sages who came immediately after Moses did not study Torah in the same manner as Moses. The Gemara answers: Those *halakhot* **that they forgot, were forgotten, but** with regard to those *halakhot* **that they studied, they would** continue to **study** in the manner **of Moses, our teacher.**


###### Temurah 15b:14
[Temurah 15b:14](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:14)

וְהָא תַּנְיָא: מִשֶּׁמֵּת מֹשֶׁה, אִם רַבּוּ מְטַמְּאִין — טִמֵּאוּ, אִם רַבּוּ טְהוֹרִין — טִיהֵרוּ!

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara objects: **But isn’t it taught** in a *baraita* with regard to the resolution of questions of *halakha*: **From** the time **when Moses died, if the majority deem** an item **impure, they** have established it as **impure,** and **if the majority deem** an item **pure, they** have established it as **pure.** If this is the case, then the manner of studying Torah after the death of Moses is based on a majority, whereas when Moses was alive there was no dispute in matters of *halakha*.


###### Temurah 15b:15
[Temurah 15b:15](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:15)

לִיבָּא דְּאִימְּעִיט, מִיגְמָר הֲווֹ גְּמִירִי לְהוּ כְּמֹשֶׁה רַבֵּינוּ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara explains that this *baraita* is referring specifically to those *halakhot* that were forgotten during the mourning period after the death of Moses. Since the understanding of **the heart was limited [*libba de’ime’it*],** the Sages were unable to reach a clear ruling on these matters. Consequently, they had to follow the majority. But with regard to all other *halakhot* **they studied, they would study them** in the manner **of Moses, our teacher.**


###### Temurah 15b:16
[Temurah 15b:16](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:16)

בְּמַתְנִיתָא תָּנָא: כׇּל אֶשְׁכּוֹלוֹת שֶׁעָמְדוּ לְיִשְׂרָאֵל מִימוֹת מֹשֶׁה עַד שֶׁמֵּת יוֹסֵף בֶּן יוֹעֶזֶר אִישׁ צְרֵידָה — לֹא הָיָה בָּהֶם שׁוּם דּוֹפִי, מִכָּאן וְאֵילָךְ — הָיָה בָּהֶן שׁוּם דּוֹפִי.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**It was taught in a *baraita*: All** the **clusters who stood** at the head **of the Jewish people from the days of Moses until Yosef ben Yo’ezer died had no flaw in them. From this** point **forward** the clusters, i.e., the leadership of the Jewish people, **had flaws in them.**


###### Temurah 15b:17
[Temurah 15b:17](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:17)

וְהָתַנְיָא: מַעֲשֶׂה בְּחָסִיד אֶחָד שֶׁהָיָה גּוֹנֵחַ מִלִּבּוֹ, וְשָׁאֲלוּ לָרוֹפְאִים, וְאָמְרוּ: אֵין לוֹ תַּקָּנָה עַד שֶׁיִּינַק חָלָב רוֹתֵחַ שַׁחֲרִית, וְהֵבִיאוּ עֵז וְקָשְׁרוּ לוֹ בְּכַרְעֵי מִיטָּתוֹ, וְהָיָה יוֹנֵק מִמֶּנָּה חֵלֶב.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
The Gemara raises a difficulty: **But isn’t it taught** in a *baraita*: There was **an incident involving a certain pious man who was groaning,** i.e., suffering, **due to** a pain in **his heart. And they asked the physicians** what to do for him, **and they said: There is no other remedy for him but that he should suckle warm milk** every **morning. And they brought** him **a goat and tied it to the leg of the bed for him, and he would suckle milk from it.**


###### Temurah 15b:18
[Temurah 15b:18](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:18)

לְמָחָר נִכְנְסוּ חֲבֵירָיו לְבַקְּרוֹ, כֵּיוָן שֶׁרָאוּ הָעֵז אָמְרוּ: לִיסְטִים מְזוּיָּין בְּתוֹךְ בֵּיתוֹ, וְאָנוּ נִכְנָסִים לְבַקְּרוֹ?! יָשְׁבוּ וּבָדְקוּ, וְלֹא מָצְאוּ בּוֹ עָוֹן אֶלָּא שֶׁל אוֹתָהּ הָעֵז בִּלְבַד.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**On the following day, his friends entered to visit him. When they saw the goat** tied to the leg of the bed **they said:** There is **an armed bandit in this** man’s **house, and we are entering to visit him?** They referred to the goat in this manner because small animals habitually graze on the vegetation of neighbors, stealing their crops. The Sages **sat and examined** this pious man’s behavior, **and they could not find** any **transgression** attributable **to him other than** the sin **of** keeping **that goat** in his house **alone.**


###### Temurah 15b:19
[Temurah 15b:19](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:19)

וְאַף הוּא בִּשְׁעַת מִיתָתוֹ אָמַר: יוֹדֵעַ אֲנִי בְּעַצְמִי שֶׁאֵין בִּי עָוֹן, אֶלָּא שֶׁל אוֹתָהּ הָעֵז בִּלְבַד, שֶׁעָבַרְתִּי עַל דִּבְרֵי חֲבֵירַי, שֶׁהֲרֵי אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים: אֵין מְגַדְּלִין בְּהֵמָה דַּקָּה בְּאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And that** man himself **also said at the time of his death: I know** for a fact **with regard to myself that I have no transgression** attributable **to me but** the sin **of** keeping **that goat** in my house **alone, as I transgressed the statement of my colleagues,** the Sages. **As the Sages said** in a mishna (*Bava Kamma* 79b): **One may not raise small domesticated animals,** i.e., sheep and goats, **in** inhabited areas of **Eretz Yisrael,** because they graze on people’s crops.


###### Temurah 15b:20
[Temurah 15b:20](https://torahapp.org/share/book/Temurah/r/15b:20)

וְקַיְימָא לַן, כֹּל הֵיכָא דְּאָמַר ״מַעֲשֶׂה בְּחָסִיד אֶחָד״ — אוֹ רַבִּי יְהוּדָה בֶּן בָּבָא אוֹ רַבִּי יְהוּדָה בַּר אִילְעַאי, וְרַבָּנַן בָּתַר יוֹסֵף בֶּן יוֹעֶזֶר אִישׁ צְרֵידָה דָּרֵי דָּרֵי הֲווֹ.

**William Davidson Edition - English:**
**And we maintain** that **anywhere that it says:** There was **an incident involving a certain pious** man, the man in question is **either Rabbi Yehuda ben Bava or Rabbi Yehuda bar Ilai. And** these **Sages** lived **many generations after Yosef ben Yo’ezer of Tzereida.** If this is the case, then even in later generations there were Sages without a flaw.