Magen Avraham Siman 114
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בתפלת מוסף. והא דאין מתחילין בערבית מפני שאין כולם בב"ה ויעשו אגודות אגודות זה מזכיר וזה אינו מזכיר והא דלא חשו לזה בשאלה נ"ל משום דהתם בלא"ה אין כולם מתחילין ביום א' רק הכל לפי המקום והא דלא מתחילין בשחרית משום דצריך להכריז ובשחרית א"א משום דצריך לסמוך גאולה לתפלה ועמ"ש ר"ס רל"ו: במקצת מדינות נוהגין להזכיר הגשם ביום הושענא רבה ולא יאות עבדי אך אם מכריזין ביום הושענא רבה משיב הרוח וכו' כדי שיתחילו להזכיר בליל ש"ע יש קצת סמך למנהג' (רדב"ז ח"א סי' ר"מ):
- The reason we don't begin to say morid hageshem at maariv is because not everyone is in shul for maariv. Therefore you'd have "groups and groups," the people not in shul (wouldn't know they were supposed to start and) wouldn't say it and the people in shul would say it. The reason we don't have this concern when we start saying visen tal umatar (we do start saying by maariv even though people aren't present) is because anyways visen tal umatar starts at different times for different places. The reason we don't start to say morid hageshem by shachris (people are in shul) is because we need to make an announcement to say geshem before we start saying it and that announcement can't be made at shachris because we can't interrupt between geulah (Shema/yitzias mitzrayim) and Shemona esrei. See what I say in the beginning of siman 236 (there the magen avraham says can interrupt before shemona esrie only at maariv if its necessary for shemona esrie like to say al hanisim). In some places the custom is to say morid hageshem on hoshana rabbah but this is improper. However if you make an announcement on hoshana rabbah to say it on shemini ateretz there is some basis for this custom.
שיכריז ש"ץ. כלומר שיאמר הש"ץ בקול רם משיב הרוח [בתוך] (קודם) התפל' ורמ"א סובר שהשמש מכריז קודם התפלה וכתב הב"ח דלדעתו אפי' הזכיר הש"ץ בלחש אסור לצבור להזכיר אם לא הכריזו תחלה בקול רם וכ"מ ס"ג בהג"ה ואיתא בב"י אפי' המתפלל בביתו אסור להזכיר עד שהזכירו הצבור ונ"ל הדר במקום שאין מנין ימתין עד זמן שמתפללין בקהלות וע"ס צ' ס"ט:
- The shulchan aruch means to say that can't mention until the chazan says mashiv haruach in a loud voice during his shemonah esrie. And the Rama holds/argues that need to have an assistant make an announcement to say morid hageshem before his tefillah. The Bach writes that "according to the Ramas opinion even if the Chazan says morid hageshem loudly in his personal shemona esrie (before chazaras hashas) the congregation still may not mention morid hageshem in there shemona esrie. The only way for them to be able to mention is if there's an announcement." This is also implied from what the Rama says on sief gimel (need to have an announcement). The beis yosef brings that "even if ones davening alone he may not mention morid hageshem until the congregation does." I think that if one's in a place where theirs no minyan he should wait until the time they daven in shuls. See siman 90 sief 9 (that really anyone in a place without a minyan should wait until the time that shuls daven).
וכן בטל. פי' מנהג ספרד לומר משיב הרוח ומוריד הטל בימות החמה:
- The sefardic custom is to say both mashiv haruch and morid hatal in the summer.
אין מחזירין. דטל ורוחות אין נעצרין ומ"מ טוב לאומרו שיהיה לברכה ונ"ל דאפילו עדיין לא סיים הברכה אין מחזירין אותו מאחר שאין חיוב כלל לאומרו עס"ס רצ"ד:
- One does not have to repeat if he forgot these because dew and wind is not withheld. Nevertheless it's good to mention (dew and wind in tefillah) because we want them to fall with blessing (right amount, time etc.). It appears to me that even if one did not finish the bracha (and say mechayei hamesim) he still should not go back (to say tal) because there's no obligation at all to say it. See end of siman 294.
ששמעו כבר. והא דאין מכריזין שלא יאמרו משיב הרוח וכו' דנראה כממאנין בגשמים ע"ד שאח"זל אין מתפללין על רוב טובה (לבוש):
- The reason we don't announce to not say mashiv haruach etc. is because it would (be misunderstood) to make us look like we are refusing rain based on the principle that chazal say not to daven for a lot of goodness (livush).
אפי' במקום וכו'. דמ"מ אינו ענין להזכרה רק לשאלה כמ"ש סי' קי"ז ס"ב:
- Because (the necessity of rain is a need which) shouldn't be addressed by saying morid hageshem (a praise) but rather by saying visen tal umatar (in the bracha of birchas hashanim where were asking for things). Like it says in siman 117 sief beis (there shulchan aruch says "if the land your in needs rain, don't go back if mentioned visen tal umatar before the time your supposed to start to mention)."
טל אין מחזירין. ואף על גב דלא מיעצר מ"מ שבח הוא להקב"ה בהזכרתו משא"כ בשאלה דצריך לשאול על דבר דמיעצר כמ"ש סי' קי"ז ס"ד:
- Even though dew is not withheld (so why does it matter to mention) it still is praising Hashem when one mentions it (therefore one fulfills his obligation if he says morid hatal instead of morid hageshem). This (fulfilling ones obligation because this bracha deals with praises which both morid hageshem and morid hatal are) is why by bircas hashanim, where one needs to ask for things which are withheld, (and not just say praises) one does not fulfill his obligation (if he says tal and not geshem). Like i say in siman 117 sief 4 (don't mention morid hatal in shomea tefillah if forgot because its a praise and shomea tefillah is a bracha where we ask).
ואפילו אם סיים הברכה. דוק' בדברים שמחזירין אותו אבל דברים שאין מחזירין אותו לא יאמר וכמ"ש סי' רצ"ד ס"ד וכ"פ הב"ח דלא כרש"ל:
- Only by things where you'd have to go back for (if you forgot them can you say them after a bracha) but for things that you don't have to go back for (if forgot) then you don't mention (after the bracha). Like I said in siman 294 sief 4. This is also the Bach's explanation which is not like the Mahrshal.
שטעה בהם. כגון שטע' בחתימתן או שלא אמר המלך הקדוש בין ר"ה ליה"כ (תוס') אבל טעה באמצע אין בכך כלום [ועסי' ר"ט וסי' נ"ט] וכמה מקומות חלוקות בנוסח התפלה וכב"י ס"ס קי"ג בשם אבודרהם דכל א' לא יזוז ממנהגו ובסי' קכ"ב כ' בשם המנהיג שאם אמר א' מהברכות במטבע קצר כברכת הפירות והמצות שפתיחתן היא חתימתן הוי משנה ממטבע שטבעו חכמים ולא יצא עכ"ל ועמ"ש סי' ס"ד:
- For example if one made a mistake in the ending of the bracha or he didn't say hamelech hakadosh during the time between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur (Tosafot). However if made a mistake in the middle of a bracha one does not go back [see siman 209 and siman and siman 59]. And many places have different versions of the wording of tefillah and the Beis Yosef writes at the end of siman 113 in the name of the Avrudraham that noone should move from there custom (ie they should follow it). And in siman 122 he writes from the Manhig that "if one changes the brachos (of shemona esrie) to a shortened form, like the (short form of) brachos on fruit and mitzvos where there beginning is there ending (shehokol nehei bidvoro doesn't have a beginning and ending like the brachos of shemona esrie) it would be considered changing the text of chazals bracha and he does not fulfill his obligation." See what I say in siman 64 (there also he makes this distinction of what parts of a bracha can be changed where nonetheless one fulfills his obligation).
לדידן. פי' דלדידהו אפי' אמרו בימות הגשמים טל כבימות החמה יצא:
- Because for them (people who mention tal in summer) even if they said in the winter (when they were supposed to say morid hageshem) tal like they do in the summer, they would fulfill their obligation.
עד מוריד הטל. ועד בכלל:
- this includes (saying morid hatal).
ג"פ בכל יום. קשה דהא בשבת וי"ט אומרים אותו ד"פ בכל יום ואיכא יותר מצ"פ בל' יום וי"ל דהרי בשאלה ג"כ הדין כן ובשאלה איכא פחות מצ"פ דהרי בשבת וי"ט אין שאלה לכן נקטינן מילתא מציעתא צ"פ [ד"מ] וכ"כ רמ"א בתשובה ומ"מ זה דוחק דלא מצינו בירושלמי דקאי אשאלה ובהג"מ באמת לא כתב צ"פ רק כתב שיאמר אותו כ"כ פעמים כמו שיאמרו אותו בל' יום וכן בשאלה:
- This is hard to understand because on shabbot and yom tov we say it (morid hatal) four times (mussaf adds another tefillah) and then it would come out that after 30 days we have said it more than 90 times? One can answer that this halacha (of saying 30 times) is also true if one says visen tal umatar 30 times straight and this would be more than the amount of times I would've mentioned over 30 days because we don't mention (visen tal umatar) on shabbot and yom tov. Therefore (since the amount of times we mention a tefillah over 30 days changes depending on if we say that tefillah on shabbos/yom tov) we take a number in between, 90 times [Darchie Moshe]. The Rama also writes this answer in a teshuva. Nonetheless this isn't such a good answer because the Yirushalmi doesn't mention the 30 days in regards to visen tal umatar (rather mentions in regards to morid hatal). The Hagoas Maimonides doesn't even mention 90 times rather he just says to mention the amount of times that you'd mention over 30 days. So similarly however many times you say visen tal umatar over 30 days would be the amount you'd say it.
הרי הוא בחזקת. כדאמרינן בגמ' אם ריחק נגיחותיו חייב קירב נגיחותיו לא כ"ש והר"פ דחה ראייתו וכו' (טור) וצ"ע דהיכי מייתי ראיה מר"מ הא קי"ל כר"י דלא נעשה מועד עד שיגח ג"פ בג' ימים ולא ג"פ ביום א' [אח"כ ראיתי שהקשה זה בשל"ה] וכ"פ לקמן סי' תקע"ו ס"ב דדוקא ג' מתים בג' ימים אבל ג' מתים ביום א' אין זה דבר וזה דלא כר"מ כדאמרי' בגמ' וא"כ חזי' דאין זה ק"ו וי"ל דש"ה דאמרי' דבאותו יום תונבא הוא דנקט ליה וכן גבי דבר אמרי' אותו היום האויר משונה משא"כ הכא אם הורגל כשאומר' מפוזרין ק"ו ברצופי' וה"ק כיון דלר"מ אפי' בשור סובר ק"ו וכ"ש הכא ואף על גב דלא קי"ל כר"מ בשור בהא מיהו קי"ל כוותיה:
- Like the gemara says (makes an argument if true for multiple days true for same day) "if your obligated (to pay full payment as a muad and not half as a tam) when the goring's are spread out (separate days) then if there close together (same day) for sure should be obligated (to pay full). The Rabbeinu Peretz rejects this proof etc. (tur). This (proof from the gemara) needs explaining because it is a quote from Rabbi Meir but Rabbi Yehuda argues that it's only a muad if gores on three separate days and not the same day [after I had this question I saw the Shelah asked this]. And we find this (that we hold like Rabbi Yehuda) is true as we say later in siman 576 sief 2 that "only if 3 people die over three days (is there a fast) but three deaths on one day is not a plague (and doesn't require fasting)." And this halacha the gemara says is not like Rabbi Meir (who says same days better). So we see that we do not hold like this argument (that if somethings true for multiple days true for same day)? We can answer that the goring case is different because if they take place on the same day we can say something just overtook it that day and similarly for deaths on the same day maybe the air was bad that day. However in our case (of morid hatal) even Rabbi Yehuda would agree to this argument because if your accustomed to saying it over a spread out period (for 30 days) for sure if said it (90 times) straight you'll be accustomed! (according to this one should read the proof were bringing from the goring case as follows). This is what were saying "since Rabbi Meir even by goring makes this argument, which he'll certainly make here (by morid hatal), we should also make it here even though by goring we don't follow his opinion."
עד מכלכל חיים כו'. ועד בכלל וא"כ נתרגל לשונו לומר רב להושיע מכלכל חיים כנ"ל ועיין בשל"ה שחולק בזה:
- This includes saying it (michalkel chaim). If one does this he accustomed himself to say "rav lihoshea michalkel chaim." Thats what I think but see the Shelah who argues on this.